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iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
283
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think this game has generally been nerfed too hard. If anything the game has suffered as a result of the whole dropsuit and damage flattening. Advanced and above dropsuits are nothing more that PG and CPU reservoirs. Granted that the extra slots are nice but they existed pre nerf anyway.
I hope wth the upcoming drop suit changes there is something of a return to meta level based incrimental suit HP increases. Or role bonues or skill based incrimental related level bonues, like eve ships. For example; a meta 1 heavy suit might have a role bonus of +5% damage to forge guns and an incrimental skill bonus of +3% to armour HP per level. They sort of hinted at this in Cst 514 but they never out and out said it was so.
I think CCP missed an opportunity with the whole flattening suit HP stratagy. It seemed to have been implimented to deal with a disparity between more experienced, skilled and finincially able players running about in the same small map with new players at thats stage in the beta.
I think a better fix would have been to give the new players more options in terms of available starter suits. An idea might have been access to suits with very low PG and CPU in exchange for high Effective HP. Limiting module options but giving them more quatative survivability. As a new player your options are limited anyway due to low available SP, and nothing is more off putting than fiddiling with 'complicated' module mechanics if thats not your thing or you are used to another game. A high HP and low versitility starter dropsuit option allows for live battlefield training in combat without worrying about modules and mods and allows for greater error margin. You arn't punished for being new.
Edit: So what does everyone think about the state of dropsuits. What woudl you do if anything to improve them? |
Takahiro Kashuken
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
102
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Posted - 2013.02.02 12:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
If they want dropsuits to be like ships in EVE then they have to bring back the hp differences aswell as adding role bonuses
Currently if we were to put the dropsuits into EVE and change them to ships we would all be flying frigs with more slots and PG yet it would be taking forever to level them to battlecruiser class and find out its a frig |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
72
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
First of all, All suits should have roughly the same amount of slots, just different layouts like ships have, the difference between able to fit the suit properly will depend on the players skills they have regarding CPU & PG usage.
In eve if i can fly a battleship, its the same Battleship as the next guy, the only diffrence is are the modules in it and how properly i can fly the damn thing.
EDIT: how it is now is just like how the Exhumers used to be, from the WORST to BEST in a linear fashion, they changed it so each fills a specific role, suits should be like that. |
KripnawtiQ Prime
L.O.T.I.S.
Legacy Rising
207
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
*sighs*
Not getting into it...but this was done for more than one reason. Its not likely to change given how they've chosen to balance weapons in relation to one another...particularly ARs. |
crazy space 1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
879
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
There should be
Militia : this is gear you can use without skills. Civilian works too.
Tech 1 dropsuit. Good amount of slots, has 2 bonus per level. Same as standard suits.
Tech 2 dropsuit: like a wolf compared to a rifter. The tech 2 is prototype slots and fittings, same hp as standard, but 4 bonuses. 2 for dropsuit skill, and 2 for the tech 2 skill.
That's it, three suits, no advanced or type 2. You know why ? The racial suits are coming, and type 2 suits make races overlap too much imo. I think the type 2 logi would be minmatar with the speed boost, and an ammar logi would get 3 equipment. I hope we get to see more weapons and drop suits soon but the market would be a mess with 30 dropsuits coming some time this month, all with thier own 7 suits? Too much stuff.
Also same with tactical rifle. It should be removed , and let the new railgun at be the long range AR. |
Sgt S-Laughter
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
22
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Posted - 2013.02.02 13:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
While a direct interchange with a completely different game would definitely show some disparities, I don't think that exactly answers this issue. DUST is not likely intended to be "eve but your a person instead of a ship, everything else is the same."
I feel it is important to have a certain level of balance between a starter kit and a pro kit in an fps. If you can simply out tank, out damage, and win a fight without out playing your opponent, you are immediately missing the core of the fps genre. This is a game about out-playing. Yes some of that comes from your choice of gear (paper counters rock), and some of that will come from your total playing time experience (as in, this is an mmo-fps, you will gain in power just by playing), but it should still allow a new player with above average player skill the opportunity to out play an average player who has leveled up.
I feel there is a slight contradiction in this post about what the actual suggestion and answer are... At first it seems you are asking for more health as you advance into higher price suits... But then you mention taking the slots away from low level suits and giving them more effective health in exchange... Do you mean you want expensive suits to be naturally tanky while cheap suits are paper? Or do you want cheap suits to be more tanky while expensive suits have bells and whistles?
I can't really cast my judgement on this argument right now... I'm only just now getting my foot back in the fps door (haven't played an fps since MAG, and before that it was halo1) so I really need to play more to form my opinion... But I'm a bit confused as to which opinion yours is? |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
283
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 15:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Good points all round.
Why don't you want to get into it prime? Isnt the point of general discussion to have discussions 
Nobody is saying dropsuits and spaceships are the same thing, however I do think they should use the same conceptual module system.
Someone said something about incoming racial dropsuits. I was under the impression were where already using racial dropsuits, just that each race had a suit in a specific class. The minmatar logistic will lagrely stay the sme but will be join by caldari, gallente and minmatar equivients, that at least what I took away from CAST 514 when I listened to it.
@ shepard, its not true that battleships are merely battleships. Each provide two racially specific bonus and have different slot layouts.
As for my opinion sgt; I think the flattening of damage and hitpoints has been a bad thing in the long term. But as I said before I think the reason for it was due to the nature of the game at the time, namely a spectrum of players of various ages all playing the same map. Led to some unfairness and frustration.
My wish is that the devs reset the flattening in some way, preferably in a way linked to skills simlar to how eve ships give bonuses to racial weaponry and role bonues. |
Dagon Cthulhu Clone
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2013.02.02 16:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
i reckon all these nerfs are not really nerfs, and are just ccp dialling back stats in anticipation of suit bonus. imagine the old amar proto heavy with a racial bonus to armour on top |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 17:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Soon (without TM) |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
206
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Posted - 2013.02.02 18:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
mixing it up again i see saber |
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
Red Rock Consortium
296
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Posted - 2013.02.02 18:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
*waits patiently for dev blog* |
Mars El'Theran
Red Rogue Squadron
Heart 0f Darkness
52
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Posted - 2013.02.02 18:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:There should be
Militia : this is gear you can use without skills. Civilian works too.
Tech 1 dropsuit. Good amount of slots, has 2 bonus per level. Same as standard suits.
Tech 2 dropsuit: like a wolf compared to a rifter. The tech 2 is prototype slots and fittings, same hp as standard, but 4 bonuses. 2 for dropsuit skill, and 2 for the tech 2 skill.
That's it, three suits, no advanced or type 2. You know why ? The racial suits are coming, and type 2 suits make races overlap too much imo. I think the type 2 logi would be minmatar with the speed boost, and an ammar logi would get 3 equipment. I hope we get to see more weapons and drop suits soon but the market would be a mess with 30 dropsuits coming some time this month, all with thier own 7 suits? Too much stuff.
Also same with tactical rifle. It should be removed , and let the new railgun at be the long range AR.
You have to take some consideration for how little fitting Dropsuits have too. Ships have greater potential fitting from Frigates on up in EVE, when compared to Dropsuits in Dust. That potential fitting allows for a greater range of variation with the huge number of modules and equipment available. Dust doesn't have that. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1058
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 18:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think stats (besides PG/CPU) should be something thrown into a dropsuit- not something that comes standard. That being said, advanced and proto dropsuits should be far cheaper because the cost should come from modules. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
431
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 18:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Although I tend to agree that Proto Scout suits could use more shield HP,
The Extra CPU/PG allows for more HP. It allows the user to have more hungry shield extenders and armor mods that couldn't work on the lower tier dropsuits as the CPU/PG would be all but gone in one module.
CPU/PG + More Slots = More HP depending on how you fit it. If CCP adds more HP I think they would get rid of some slots to balance. I mean this is a part of EVE but it's an FPS so things can't rightly go hand in hand all the time. That's just what I say. |
Rasputin La'Gar
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 19:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
I don't know much about higher level dropsuits but it makes no sense to even them out
A high level player who puts in the isk for his fitting should be nothing like standard players
It's an uneven battlefield but things like this make the game. Imagine the possible titan clashes |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 19:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
As noted the blog would cover the 'tech 2' suits one of the mentioned suits was the covert ops suit. Reason why its in ' ' is because they're not classed as such under items however the new skill books coming out and the new suits would be very akin to eve's own tech 2 progression.
It is likely not going to get labeled tech 2 until industrial expansions as tech 1 is made from common materials tech 2 is made from highly advanced components not made from every day things along with complex research requirements to make a limited run blueprint.
The developers also hinted at different progression and skill book shakeup in the next build. So going up in suit levels is going to mean something significantly different in the next expansion patch.
One of the first sets of suits to get faction-ed out will be the other empire's assault suits. Other classes to follow. Pilot and Crusader and Command suits I can easily see not being starter fits ever though but militia variants are likely.
As for the whole uneven battlefield, look to eve online and 10 years of growth. Its rarely stopped anyone from joining and becoming successful.
Oldest player and most skilled player in that game can barely take me on in a fight. |
Sgt S-Laughter
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 20:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Although I tend to agree that Proto Scout suits could use more shield HP,
The Extra CPU/PG allows for more HP. It allows the user to have more hungry shield extenders and armor mods that couldn't work on the lower tier dropsuits as the CPU/PG would be all but gone in one module.
CPU/PG + More Slots = More HP depending on how you fit it. If CCP adds more HP I think they would get rid of some slots to balance. I mean this is a part of EVE but it's an FPS so things can't rightly go hand in hand all the time. That's just what I say.
This is prolly the best method. If you want to be tankier, utilize those extra module attachments for it. Perhaps they could even buff that so that you have the choice as you progress. Do you want to be a tanky logistics? Do you want to be a high damage logistics? Perhaps with some small base power growth (similar to the gun's progression), but mostly allow the user to define their power through their customization.
I think leaving the argument for power as simply an isk battle is a bit stale. Costing more to get you more options, and allowing a player to apply their skill to their suit build, makes a lot more sense than simply saying it cost more so it should be better in all regards. Likewise with the gek argument (or any "gun x op, gun y worthless) should be looked at through modules. It's okay for a stock gun to be best of the stock guns... So long as the rest are viable once specialized. |
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