DUST Search - Effects of Sniper Rifle Ballistics

tribal wyvern wrote:

Vaerana Myshtana wrote:

Awhile back, I did some scratchpad figuring on how travel time and bullet drop would affect the performance of Sniper Rifles. At the time that I posted this, I didn't have the stats in front of me.

I felt that it was important to go back and redo the math using the maximum range (just under 600m) and velocity (a bit over 2,500m/s) from the actual weapons in question to have a clean discussion about SRs.

Travel time to 600m at 2,500m/s is 0.24s (~1/4 second).

In that time, a sprinting Militia Scout dropsuit (7.8m/s) can move 1.872m. While other suits sprint more slowly, all of them could move more than enough to cause a miss.

Bullet drop at a range of 600m would be about 0.28m (a bit less than a foot).

--- So my question becomes, is this how they are performing? ---

Does a long-range (>300m) shot have a travel time of more than 1/10 of a second?
If you fire long-range at the current position of a fast moving dropsuit, does the shot hit behind it on arrival?
Does a long-range shot hit slightly below the point of aim?

If not, then the Sniper Rifles are not working as described. If they are not working as described, then they should be made to do so or the descriptions should accurately reflect how they work.

However, given the limitations of our bodies and equipment, I'm not sure how to test this accurately. Here's the best I've come up with so far:

{Bullet Drop Test} The easiest, I guess, is to test bullet drop. We can test this by having two snipers looking at the same inanimate object (behind the redline to avoid interference) and using voice comms. If Sniper A is aiming at a particular point on the object (say the fourth ladder rung), then Sniper B should see the impact slightly below the rung.

{Travel Time Test} Patsy C in a Scout suit runs along a very predictable path (again behind the redline), say along the edge of a platform. Snipers A & B zero in on him. Sniper A fires at C just as his reticle turns orange. If working correctly, Sniper B should see the impact just behind C.

I have experienced things ("shoot the chevron" for instance) that suggest to me that this is how they are working, but I haven't been able to test it with other people in a non-combat situation. Has anyone done any tests with the recent builds?

There are no bullets used, it's energy.
So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics

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Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 203	Posted - 2013.02.01 15:56:00 - [1] - Quote Awhile back, I did some scratchpad figuring on how travel time and bullet drop would affect the performance of Sniper Rifles. At the time that I posted this, I didn't have the stats in front of me. I felt that it was important to go back and redo the math using the maximum range (just under 600m) and velocity (a bit over 2,500m/s) from the actual weapons in question to have a clean discussion about SRs. Travel time to 600m at 2,500m/s is 0.24s (~1/4 second). In that time, a sprinting Militia Scout dropsuit (7.8m/s) can move 1.872m. While other suits sprint more slowly, all of them could move more than enough to cause a miss. Bullet drop at a range of 600m would be about 0.28m (a bit less than a foot). --- So my question becomes, is this how they are performing? --- Does a long-range (>300m) shot have a travel time of more than 1/10 of a second? If you fire long-range at the current position of a fast moving dropsuit, does the shot hit behind it on arrival? Does a long-range shot hit slightly below the point of aim? If not, then the Sniper Rifles are not working as described. If they are not working as described, then they should be made to do so or the descriptions should accurately reflect how they work. However, given the limitations of our bodies and equipment, I'm not sure how to test this accurately. Here's the best I've come up with so far: {Bullet Drop Test} The easiest, I guess, is to test bullet drop. We can test this by having two snipers looking at the same inanimate object (behind the redline to avoid interference) and using voice comms. If Sniper A is aiming at a particular point on the object (say the fourth ladder rung), then Sniper B should see the impact slightly below the rung. {Travel Time Test} Patsy C in a Scout suit runs along a very predictable path (again behind the redline), say along the edge of a platform. Snipers A & B zero in on him. Sniper A fires at C just as his reticle turns orange. If working correctly, Sniper B should see the impact just behind C. I have experienced things ("shoot the chevron" for instance) that suggest to me that this is how they are working, but I haven't been able to test it with other people in a non-combat situation. Has anyone done any tests with the recent builds?
Blue DeVille Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 25	Posted - 2013.02.01 16:18:00 - [2] - Quote the answer is no, no, and no.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 165	Posted - 2013.02.01 16:29:00 - [3] - Quote Effect to gameplay:Any decent player will bob and slide in open fields, making sniper shot accuracy completely random on them. This will make long distance sniping unreliable, and no top end corps will be doing field control sniper, removing efficiently one valid endgame role. Combat sniping is fun in itself, but field control sniping is currently a viable strategical choice that should not go.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 203	Posted - 2013.02.01 16:31:00 - [4] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: Combat sniping is fun in itself, but field control sniping is currently a viable strategical choice that should not go. Oh, I'm not advocating taking them out or hobbling them. I'm just curious if they are working as described and if not, why not?
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 203	Posted - 2013.02.01 16:33:00 - [5] - Quote Blue DeVille wrote: the answer is no, no, and no. Out of curiosity, based on what? Did you run tests like I described or based on some other standardized methodology, or are you just relaying your impressions? Thanks.
Kamiya Musume Suffer Inc. 63	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:17:00 - [6] - Quote They don't work as described because currently the HitScan mechanism is used to determine a hit. HitScan requires: Location of Shooter (LS), Rotation of Shooter (RS), Location of Target (LT). Method: a straight line is traced from LS along RS and is tested to see if it intersects with the hitbox at LT. This is quick and simple and can be used with the thousands of bullets that fly around the Dust maps. Anything else is computationally so expensive as to render it useless in a real time situation. When we all have computers and consoles capable of many Peta-Flops, then we will see real bullet mechanics in MMOFPS games, and not until.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 165	Posted - 2013.02.01 17:22:00 - [7] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: trollsroyce wrote: Combat sniping is fun in itself, but field control sniping is currently a viable strategical choice that should not go. Oh, I'm not advocating taking them out or hobbling them. I'm just curious if they are working as described and if not, why not? They are now working consistently, because you hit the pixels you aim at regardless whether the enemy is bobbing randomly or not. Games like ps2 and bf series have no functional endgame long range sniping, because the sniper cannot rely on his skills to land the shot - unpredictable bobbing with bullet flight time makes it so. If anything should be done about snipers, I'd look into headshot multiplier vs. Base damage. 2-3 regular shots to kill scouts and assaults (instead of 1 or 2). 1 headshot to kill even heavies. This would create a distinction between good and awesome snipers.
develsgun Phyrexian Engineering Legacy Rising 19	Posted - 2013.02.02 00:50:00 - [8] - Quote As I remember from my bf3 days I rememver a very relistic ballistic program and it didnt stop snipers from making headshots farenough away for the tiny pixel of a man to actually be outside there scope. As for ballistic in dust it be a tricky bussiness as we arnt using traditional guns or bullits well anyone but minmatar who still use the oldfashion metal and gunpowder like today. Basically there would be other physics involved like a laser would be accurate but diminish the further it goes cause of reflection off dust and other parts of the atmosphere. Bullits are known physics but the gun and tech would be a bit futher along than todays so faster muzzle velocity and better bullit aerodynamics. Hybrid weopons use balls of plasma and electro fields for containment. Basically theretical science and science I dont know Now in ur post u said 1/10th of a sec between the trigger being pulled and the bullit hitting its maximum distance. That may sound a lot on paper but let me relistic it a bit 1/10 of a sec is about 10 millisecs. Now take a stop watch and try to stop it within even 10millisecs of 10 millisecs when starting from 0 ur finger basically doesnt stop pushing the start/stop button on. Your stop watch now unless the person started diving (impossible in this game) the sniper knowing how to lead the target will hit his mark more than currently as most of the people u are good at sniping are getting messed up by the fact that there is no leading u put the dot on ur target and unless its red u will miss
tribal wyvern ZionTCD Legacy Rising 673	Posted - 2013.02.02 01:52:00 - [9] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Awhile back, I did some scratchpad figuring on how travel time and bullet drop would affect the performance of Sniper Rifles. At the time that I posted this, I didn't have the stats in front of me. I felt that it was important to go back and redo the math using the maximum range (just under 600m) and velocity (a bit over 2,500m/s) from the actual weapons in question to have a clean discussion about SRs. Travel time to 600m at 2,500m/s is 0.24s (~1/4 second). In that time, a sprinting Militia Scout dropsuit (7.8m/s) can move 1.872m. While other suits sprint more slowly, all of them could move more than enough to cause a miss. Bullet drop at a range of 600m would be about 0.28m (a bit less than a foot). --- So my question becomes, is this how they are performing? --- Does a long-range (>300m) shot have a travel time of more than 1/10 of a second? If you fire long-range at the current position of a fast moving dropsuit, does the shot hit behind it on arrival? Does a long-range shot hit slightly below the point of aim? If not, then the Sniper Rifles are not working as described. If they are not working as described, then they should be made to do so or the descriptions should accurately reflect how they work. However, given the limitations of our bodies and equipment, I'm not sure how to test this accurately. Here's the best I've come up with so far: {Bullet Drop Test} The easiest, I guess, is to test bullet drop. We can test this by having two snipers looking at the same inanimate object (behind the redline to avoid interference) and using voice comms. If Sniper A is aiming at a particular point on the object (say the fourth ladder rung), then Sniper B should see the impact slightly below the rung. {Travel Time Test} Patsy C in a Scout suit runs along a very predictable path (again behind the redline), say along the edge of a platform. Snipers A & B zero in on him. Sniper A fires at C just as his reticle turns orange. If working correctly, Sniper B should see the impact just behind C. I have experienced things ("shoot the chevron" for instance) that suggest to me that this is how they are working, but I haven't been able to test it with other people in a non-combat situation. Has anyone done any tests with the recent builds? There are no bullets used, it's energy. So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.02.02 03:22:00 - [10] - Quote tribal wyvern wrote: Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Awhile back, I did some scratchpad figuring on how travel time and bullet drop would affect the performance of Sniper Rifles. At the time that I posted this, I didn't have the stats in front of me. I felt that it was important to go back and redo the math using the maximum range (just under 600m) and velocity (a bit over 2,500m/s) from the actual weapons in question to have a clean discussion about SRs. Travel time to 600m at 2,500m/s is 0.24s (~1/4 second). In that time, a sprinting Militia Scout dropsuit (7.8m/s) can move 1.872m. While other suits sprint more slowly, all of them could move more than enough to cause a miss. Bullet drop at a range of 600m would be about 0.28m (a bit less than a foot). --- So my question becomes, is this how they are performing? --- Does a long-range (>300m) shot have a travel time of more than 1/10 of a second? If you fire long-range at the current position of a fast moving dropsuit, does the shot hit behind it on arrival? Does a long-range shot hit slightly below the point of aim? If not, then the Sniper Rifles are not working as described. If they are not working as described, then they should be made to do so or the descriptions should accurately reflect how they work. However, given the limitations of our bodies and equipment, I'm not sure how to test this accurately. Here's the best I've come up with so far: {Bullet Drop Test} The easiest, I guess, is to test bullet drop. We can test this by having two snipers looking at the same inanimate object (behind the redline to avoid interference) and using voice comms. If Sniper A is aiming at a particular point on the object (say the fourth ladder rung), then Sniper B should see the impact slightly below the rung. {Travel Time Test} Patsy C in a Scout suit runs along a very predictable path (again behind the redline), say along the edge of a platform. Snipers A & B zero in on him. Sniper A fires at C just as his reticle turns orange. If working correctly, Sniper B should see the impact just behind C. I have experienced things ("shoot the chevron" for instance) that suggest to me that this is how they are working, but I haven't been able to test it with other people in a non-combat situation. Has anyone done any tests with the recent builds? There are no bullets used, it's energy. So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics A solid projectile actually IS used. As per the ingame description, a 2 inch 'beehive' flechette is used. Flechettes are basically metal darts, very well suited to long distance, flat trajectory, accurate flight and have superb penetrative capabilities due to the full force of an impact is at a needle tip. Perfect for amour piercing duties. Designs at the moment are trying to induce/increase yaw and fragmentation of the round after initial impact as very small entry and exit holes don't stop targets. Caseless sabot flechette rounds are going to be the future more than likely once this issue is resolved. As with alot of descriptions ingame at the moment, the actual velocity of the round is vague. All we get is that it is in excess of 2500m/s. It'd be great if we had proper ballistics in Dust, but even with hit scan, I'd be calling it a lucky shot if someone was able to hit a fast target moving perpendicular to them at 600m. Good post OP

DigiOps DUST University Ivy League 85	Posted - 2013.02.02 04:04:00 - [11] - Quote tribal wyvern wrote: There are no bullets used, it's energy. So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics I thought the sniper rifle was a miniature railgun... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railguns I'll just put that there.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.02.02 04:12:00 - [12] - Quote Currently sniper rifles are hitscan. They fire perfectly accurately at the point the reticle is, whether you're at 600 m or 1 m. There have been rumours about sniper rifles getting ballistics added, but I've heard nothing official. In either case, the fictional description of the weapon doesn't really factor into it. They can always rewrite the description if they want to. trollsroyce wrote: Effect to gameplay:Any decent player will bob and slide in open fields, making sniper shot accuracy completely random on them. This will make long distance sniping unreliable, and no top end corps will be doing field control sniper, removing efficiently one valid endgame role. Combat sniping is fun in itself, but field control sniping is currently a viable strategical choice that should not go. These are good changes to the game. Extreme range shots should be really hard to do. Snipers should be encouraged to be within a couple hundred metres of the target, such that they're actually a part of the fight in a real way. As for corps bringing them, they probably won't anyway. But who's to say how the metagame will look? There will always been things that corps don't bring. If snipers don't get brought, well, they'll be on a list of a lot of things that people don't bring.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.02.02 04:14:00 - [13] - Quote tribal wyvern wrote: There are no bullets used, it's energy. So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics Only the Assault Rifle, Scrambler Pistol, Shotgun, Blasters, and Laser Rifle use energy as ammunition. The Forge Gun and Sniper Rifle are railgun type weapons, using electromagnetism to propel a projectile forward. The same goes for Rails. The Submachine gun and Heavy Machine Gun use standard gunpowder ammunition. Swarm Launchers and Missile turrets fire missiles.
General Tiberius1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2013.02.02 04:28:00 - [14] - Quote tribal wyvern wrote: Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Awhile back, I did some scratchpad figuring on how travel time and bullet drop would affect the performance of Sniper Rifles. At the time that I posted this, I didn't have the stats in front of me. I felt that it was important to go back and redo the math using the maximum range (just under 600m) and velocity (a bit over 2,500m/s) from the actual weapons in question to have a clean discussion about SRs. Travel time to 600m at 2,500m/s is 0.24s (~1/4 second). In that time, a sprinting Militia Scout dropsuit (7.8m/s) can move 1.872m. While other suits sprint more slowly, all of them could move more than enough to cause a miss. Bullet drop at a range of 600m would be about 0.28m (a bit less than a foot). --- So my question becomes, is this how they are performing? --- Does a long-range (>300m) shot have a travel time of more than 1/10 of a second? If you fire long-range at the current position of a fast moving dropsuit, does the shot hit behind it on arrival? Does a long-range shot hit slightly below the point of aim? If not, then the Sniper Rifles are not working as described. If they are not working as described, then they should be made to do so or the descriptions should accurately reflect how they work. However, given the limitations of our bodies and equipment, I'm not sure how to test this accurately. Here's the best I've come up with so far: {Bullet Drop Test} The easiest, I guess, is to test bullet drop. We can test this by having two snipers looking at the same inanimate object (behind the redline to avoid interference) and using voice comms. If Sniper A is aiming at a particular point on the object (say the fourth ladder rung), then Sniper B should see the impact slightly below the rung. {Travel Time Test} Patsy C in a Scout suit runs along a very predictable path (again behind the redline), say along the edge of a platform. Snipers A & B zero in on him. Sniper A fires at C just as his reticle turns orange. If working correctly, Sniper B should see the impact just behind C. I have experienced things ("shoot the chevron" for instance) that suggest to me that this is how they are working, but I haven't been able to test it with other people in a non-combat situation. Has anyone done any tests with the recent builds? There are no bullets used, it's energy. So no ballistics, and no 'bullet drop'. Energy has no ballistics the sniper rifles in game are described as man-portable rail guns. rail guns fire magneticly accelerated metalic slugs=greater velocity then standard rounds, but still obeys the same princibles as the bullet.


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