DUST Search - A perspective on how to deal with Heavies

Denak Kalamari wrote:

Since you told me how to deal wibth eavies, I in return will tell you how to deal with scout shotties since I play them near exclusively.

Now, the best thing to do is to simply keep your distance. If you don't allow the scout to get close enough for his shotgun to be effective, you'll rip through his weak armor and shields in no-time. That isn't really an option with heavies, so my advice is keep your guard up. Watch for any possible places where the scout can flank you and get a jump for you. Another way is to back him into a corner with no opportunity to run, or force him into a close-range engagement with you up front. They might try to strafe in these situations, but if you can keep their crosshair on him he'll be dead.

Another crucial thing is to NEVER GO AFTER THEM if a scout shoots you and runs away. Not will you never reach him, 9/10 times he will be waiting behind a corner, ready to mow you down. A tip to counter this is to outsmart the scout, you start flanking and if you're fast enough, you catch the scout off-guard and score an easy kill.

Finally, if you are hacking something or you're otherwise stationary and see a red dot near you on the map, stop immediately what you're doing and deal with him. Then after that, I recommend you quickly relocate.

For short, scout shotties rely on stealth and lure tactics to score kills. If you keep your guard up, think like a scout, deny him flanking or cover and be unpredictable, you will make a scout's life a lot harder.

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Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:20:00 - [1] - Quote So earlier today on a different site someone asked for help for dealing with heavies, it was on a different form. But the answer I wrote up seems to have helped a few people there. And maybe If I am lucky posting it here will make a few people who cry for nerfs realize whats actually happening. I run as a heavy, I run against heavies as other suits. This is how you can beat them by playing smart, instead of just crying for nerfs. Heavies have a few exploitable weaknesses but first you have to know their strengths. They have lots of health and access to the heavy weapon slot. The health lets them stay around in a fight a lot longer but can also be a major downfall. Heavies get cocky, we think we are invincible, and we will wander out of cover into the open and overextend ourselves into a kill box when we are on the attack. Second, the heavy weapon slot grants access to two weapons at the moment, the forge gun (if you get hit with one of these its to the re spawn vats with you) and the HMG (which seems to be the sore point). The HMG is a monster up close, and will shred infantry out in the open without breaking a sweat. Range Stats you need to know: Assault Rifle Max Range: 78m Optimal Range: 1 - 35m Heavy Machine Gun Max Range: 59m Optimal Range: 1 - 34m Meta Level: 1 Now, the Optimal Ranges of both weapons are close, but the assault rifle can hurt the heavy from ranges where the heavy cant shoot back. You need to know this, and the ranges specifically because you cant try and trade hits from the heavy even at your optimal range. Its a terrible idea and it wont work out very well for you. One easy way to kill heavies is to stick 50m+ out away from them and peg them till they fall. Your rifle retains amazing accuracy at that range, where the HMGs spread really hurts us. You will bring us down at extreme range before we bring you down/move into range. Cover Now that the above isnt always an option. the next best thing is cover. You guys with the AR's may not notice this much, but unless you are hip firing you probably noticed that unless you can only see their head or they are completely crouched behind cover, you generally dont care. Even with L1 in AR Operation you can wield a militia assault rifle accurately enough to reliably hit almost all your shots into 1/4 of an exposed body. Cover doesnt hurt you when you shoot much. And so most of you think it wont help you either. That circle the heavy has, shots go -everywhere- in that circle. If we get the circle so its only on you, you are dead. however if part of that circle is obscured (even by half) it limits our dps by HALF. Keep half your torso behind a wall, stand behind a barricade. Do ANYTHING besides let us see your whole body. Iv been killed countless times by a guy wielding an AR trading hits with me simply because half my shots or more hit the cover instead of him. War of Attrition We have lots of health. But the MK1 heavies a lot of people still use armour tank with 700-800 HP. their shields only have 100 HP, and they dont recharge often, and armour repairs come back slowly. A common tactic people use to bring down heavies is to pop out and take out their shields and a bit of armour, then go back into hiding to let their shields regen from the return fire. This has two effects. The heavies armour will slowly get lower and lower making them panic, and in the brief moment where your accuracy is at its best his is at its worst and you can damage his armour again (once your shields are back up) and he can only damage your shields before you run away and repeat. Its a slow process, but the heavy runs as fast as you walk. you control where the engagement happens. So dont make it happen on his terms. Grenades Remember that comment of heavies running as fast as you walk? Grenades are hell for them. Scout suits+shotties Heavies have a poor turn speed, its even slower when we are shooting. The Scout suits are the best to capitalize on this, but assaults can do it too. Dont run right at us, sneak around us, get into our blind spot and punish us. Its rock paper scissors. Scouts are the bane of heavies, heavies are the bane of AR/assault suits, and it sounds as if AR/assault have little problem handling the Scouts. If a scout gets to a heavy (which isnt very hard) the fight is basically over right there. Speed within a range 0-15 or 0-20 meters you are dead if a heavy gets a bead on you. But we cant turn very fast, not nearly as fast as you can run across our screen, dont run at us, dont stop moving, if you are in a heavies kill zone get out of the kill zone. At that range an assault suit can run fast enough that the heavy will have a lot of trouble keeping a bead on you. You might not kill the heavy if you have to run like this, but its better than giving him a free kill. Spool up We get more accurate as we keep firing, and we can keep firing for a while. Our guns will overheat before long if we keep doing it however. So we have a choice, if we want to hold maximum accuracy with minimum spread we need to hold down the trigger. This is deadly for you. How do you avoid it? Dont give us a target long enough. This was mentioned in the war of attrition but it deserves its own point. If we keep firing when we cant see you we retain accuracy but waste ammo and risk overheating. If we stop firing then we are less accurate when you pop back out. Just dont pop out for long.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:21:00 - [2] - Quote Snipers: Snipers in a 1v1 scenario have the advantage of range over everyone. However without support unless the heavy is stuck completely out in the open or has to cross a large stretch of land snipers should look for other targets unless they have a friend or ally nearby who can take advantage of a temporarily wounded heavy. The Mark I Heavy suit can soak a snipers shot with their shields without really caring. The Mark II Heavy Suit takes 2 shots to drop their shields, and then another 3 to kill them with a standard rifle. Frequently if there is no combat to be happening within the next 10-15 seconds ill just walk out in a MK II Heavy suit and stand there (or spin, or jump) to draw sniper fire/check to see if there is a sniper and duck away into cover after the second hit finishes off my shields. It wastes the time of the sniper, draws their focus, and possibly wastes ammo if they dont have a nano-hive. Given a Mark I suit cant do that as well (100 vs 300 shield), and it may actually be worth the snipers time to rip off chunks of armor. But otherwise unless the heavy has no way of breaking LOS with you or you have a friend close enough to capitalize on the situation (as most heavies run an armour rep anyway, and watch the minimap for friendlies), id find a better target than a full health Heavy. (my second favorite fitting is a sniper fit) Conclusion: This is for solo use, ideally you will have friends nearby to help deal with a heavy. In which case you use squad level tactics. The heavy suit is a commanding presence on the battlefield, but its really easy to overwhelm with even 2 people. It has no 'oh hell iv gotta run away now' mode when it hits the fan and it has no way to reach another engagement quickly (except for the LAV spam, but that takes time too, its hard to control, and they are easy to kill unless your entire team is completely ignoring anti-tank (even a meta 1 HMG will shred a standard LAV)). Abuse the heavies weaknesses, and for the love of god dont let them play their strengths. If anyone has any other advice or additions I would welcome them! (I would also personally welcome advice as a heavy on how to deal with scouts/shotties) How do you deal with a Heavy? as a Heavy what tends to kill you or get you killed? Editors Note: Iv killed Heavies (or escaped them) in the ways mentioned using non heavy suits as well have been on the receiving end of them when I run Heavy. I primarily use Heavy suits and that is where my skills are tied up, but even the stock militia fits with no real specialization is more than enough to pull this (at least the points relevant to an AR/assault suit) stuff off.
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 330	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:23:00 - [3] - Quote Great thread, thank you.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:24:00 - [4] - Quote All of this has been said before on here, and many times by many people. However I dont believe that as many of these points have been compiled into just a few posts as is the case above.. hopefully having it condensed helps a few people..
Vaek Guverdon Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium 5	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:50:00 - [5] - Quote I also have some advice to taking them down, sub machine guns. You can orbit a heavy in a scout ,now he can't hit you because The HMG takes along time to turn around and the smg does extra armor damage so fairly fast a heavy can come down. Oh and invest in a smg like the M209 it's most effective.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.01.30 05:01:00 - [6] - Quote With how our suits don't keep up with proto-level weapons, we're dead when things get serious. Proto AR vs. suits that top out at 650 HP? Don't make me laugh. That's standard level armor vs. proto level weapons. I won't lie, I'm very worried that I'm just wasting SP right now. CCP didn't think about that, though.
Cpt Murd0ck Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2013.01.30 05:22:00 - [7] - Quote Shotgun scout is definitely the way forward when I see a heavy its easy prey.
Sandromin Hes Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 204	Posted - 2013.01.30 05:46:00 - [8] - Quote lasers are fairly effective due to damage build up. smgs are too due to their bonus on armor and rapid dps and fire rate coupled with high magazine capacity.
Hexen Trickster The Southern Legion 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 06:51:00 - [9] - Quote This is a great guide.. as a scout shotgunner i find heavys simple enough to deal with and agree if they get some sustained fire i go down easy but if i jump around and get close enough 1 good blast from my breach shotgun to there face.. they go down like any other suit my best HMG tip is to duck in and outa cover and drain there ammo till they reload.. then attack them
Gemini Cuspid Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:05:00 - [10] - Quote I play mainly as an assault frontline. I find it hugely ironic (in a funny, odd way) that scouts and heavies are contradictory and yet play to each others weaknesses. I sometimes end up strafing as best as possible in a circle around a heavy if I find myself too close otherwise it's a flux grenade and surprise. With scouts, I try to to make as much distance as possible and weaken that damage when they're peppering me with a shotgun. If it's an mass driver, I have to do the "omgz bunny~hop and run plz same me" and find cover until they run out. Otherwise both a scout and a heavy are pretty damn difficult to deal with when they know which direction you're coming from and have little means to either get to cover, run away or have team members come to your end. I have to admit though flux grenades for that momentary effect where some players stop and wait for their shields. The one thing I'm seeing which is becoming a pain are corps running with two heavies side by side; even if you get the jump on them, you might get one but the second one is the problem. Strategies and tactics will obviously change as players develop their skill points and experience. I've seen two players with scout suits and mobility mods run circles around players and take out a group just from the confusion of trying to figure out where the shots are coming from. This is all obviously just my play~style and I'm sure everyone has their own method if anything.

Landari Zeta Exit Wound Heavy Industries 16	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:09:00 - [11] - Quote Eh, I just don't see Heavies as a huge problem right now. I have more issues avoiding getting slaughtered by the GEK-38. That thing is probably responsible for half my deaths.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:13:00 - [12] - Quote Get to cover pull out a locus grenade and arm it. Count to three, Throw at heavies foot. ???? profit.
Denak Kalamari CrimeWave Syndicate 80	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:23:00 - [13] - Quote Since you told me how to deal wibth eavies, I in return will tell you how to deal with scout shotties since I play them near exclusively. Now, the best thing to do is to simply keep your distance. If you don't allow the scout to get close enough for his shotgun to be effective, you'll rip through his weak armor and shields in no-time. That isn't really an option with heavies, so my advice is keep your guard up. Watch for any possible places where the scout can flank you and get a jump for you. Another way is to back him into a corner with no opportunity to run, or force him into a close-range engagement with you up front. They might try to strafe in these situations, but if you can keep their crosshair on him he'll be dead. Another crucial thing is to NEVER GO AFTER THEM if a scout shoots you and runs away. Not will you never reach him, 9/10 times he will be waiting behind a corner, ready to mow you down. A tip to counter this is to outsmart the scout, you start flanking and if you're fast enough, you catch the scout off-guard and score an easy kill. Finally, if you are hacking something or you're otherwise stationary and see a red dot near you on the map, stop immediately what you're doing and deal with him. Then after that, I recommend you quickly relocate. For short, scout shotties rely on stealth and lure tactics to score kills. If you keep your guard up, think like a scout, deny him flanking or cover and be unpredictable, you will make a scout's life a lot harder.
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 213	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:33:00 - [14] - Quote Cpt Murd0ck wrote: Shotgun scout is definitely the way forward when I see a heavy its easy prey. Shot gun scouts are pointless right now you can sprint faster and have a better tank in assualt suit and be as invisable (baring the use of sensor bosters, and theres no reason to out sude of a few esoteric builds) as a scout.
Entrei Blackstorm ZionTCD Legacy Rising 49	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:33:00 - [15] - Quote Dang it Torr, why you making people use their brain to counter heavies by providing proven strategies? wouldn't it be easier to just cry for a nerf? Oh wait, the nerf threads pop up like every 5 minutes In any event, nice post. +1.
fred orpaul Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 213	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:37:00 - [16] - Quote Denak Kalamari wrote: Since you told me how to deal wibth eavies, I in return will tell you how to deal with scout shotties since I play them near exclusively. Now, the best thing to do is to simply keep your distance. If you don't allow the scout to get close enough for his shotgun to be effective, you'll rip through his weak armor and shields in no-time. That isn't really an option with heavies, so my advice is keep your guard up. Watch for any possible places where the scout can flank you and get a jump for you. Another way is to back him into a corner with no opportunity to run, or force him into a close-range engagement with you up front. They might try to strafe in these situations, but if you can keep their crosshair on him he'll be dead. Another crucial thing is to NEVER GO AFTER THEM if a scout shoots you and runs away. Not will you never reach him, 9/10 times he will be waiting behind a corner, ready to mow you down. A tip to counter this is to outsmart the scout, you start flanking and if you're fast enough, you catch the scout off-guard and score an easy kill. Finally, if you are hacking something or you're otherwise stationary and see a red dot near you on the map, stop immediately what you're doing and deal with him. Then after that, I recommend you quickly relocate. For short, scout shotties rely on stealth and lure tactics to score kills. If you keep your guard up, think like a scout, deny him flanking or cover and be unpredictable, you will make a scout's life a lot harder. Yep heavies keep your eyes open in the open and hung walls. if I Can't circle you ihave to pass throughyour bullet sream Multipletimes or risk missing the jump over you and having you're hmg in my belly button.
SSBBW Amber Church of the Unforgiven 26	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:41:00 - [17] - Quote I'll add to this as well since I play a heavy exclusively. It helps to know how heavies "generally" spend SP. First is Dropsuit to 3, Weapons to 5, then wait to be able to upgrade Amarr Dropsuits to 3 so we can get into type 2 dropsuits. The reason for this is because we really can't afford to upgrade our HMGs while wearing Type 1 suits. There are work arounds, but it usually means we are going into battle with open slots or we've wasted SP on skills that allow us to use Type 2 HWGs. So we have to get into Type 2 suits, this means that while we wait to get 200K SP to upgrade Amarr Drops to lvl 3, we aren't working on HW Operation or any other HW skills. If u take advantage of a heavies lack of mobility, you can almost always take one down, even in starter fits. If you can get within a few meters of a heavy, we are usually toast, since you can strafe around us faster than we turn. If you are being shot at by a heavy, for the love of Pete, don't just stand there and try to take the hits, you'll almost surely loose if the heavy has full shields and armor.
General Tiberius1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:52:00 - [18] - Quote i have a similar thread floating around, but +1 for a much longer, well thought out post, whish we could combine the two
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2013.01.30 07:55:00 - [19] - Quote Very well written, intelligent, and clearly experienced advice. Well done, you absolute scoundrel.
Hexen Trickster The Southern Legion 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:38:00 - [20] - Quote Just found a good way to deal with heavys as a scout.. jump on there heads.. just like dogs heavys cant look up

lowratehitman Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 285	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:40:00 - [21] - Quote Vaek Guverdon wrote: I also have some advice to taking them down, sub machine guns. You can orbit a heavy in a scout ,now he can't hit you because The HMG takes along time to turn around and the smg does extra armor damage so fairly fast a heavy can come down. Oh and invest in a smg like the M209 it's most effective. At 100% sensitivity the hmg can orbit at the same speed.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 197	Posted - 2013.01.30 09:53:00 - [22] - Quote As a heavy id like to point out, we are quite susceptible to forge guns....
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:52:00 - [23] - Quote Cpt Murd0ck wrote: Shotgun scout is definitely the way forward when I see a heavy its easy prey. Shotgun scouts make me swear. Frequently. Denak Kalamari wrote: For short, scout shotties rely on stealth and lure tactics to score kills. If you keep your guard up, think like a scout, deny him flanking or cover and be unpredictable, you will make a scout's life a lot harder. I try and keep it in mind, but some times its all I can do.. making their lives harder that is, if a scout+shotty wants me dead, and I am in a heavy suit, odds are I am dead. Entrei Blackstorm wrote: Dang it Torr, why you making people use their brain to counter heavies by providing proven strategies? wouldn't it be easier to just cry for a nerf? Oh wait, the nerf threads pop up like every 5 minutes In any event, nice post. +1. Thanks! :) General Tiberius1 wrote: i have a similar thread floating around, but +1 for a much longer, well thought out post, whish we could combine the two Thank you for the kind words, and the reason I posted this was because its more compiled than a few of the other threads out there with similar purpose :) Chunky Munkey wrote: Very well written, intelligent, and clearly experienced advice. Well done, you absolute scoundrel. Scoundrel?! I am not a.. wait.. yes I am. Carry on :)
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:54:00 - [24] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: As a heavy id like to point out, we are quite susceptible to forge guns.... Everything is rather susceptible to forge guns :) That said thank you everyone for contributing to the discussion!
Gelan Corbaine BetaMax. 103	Posted - 2013.01.30 15:15:00 - [25] - Quote Giving away our secrets ? You traitor ! Die ! ..........................jk nice post.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:48:00 - [26] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: Giving away our secrets ? You traitor ! Die ! ..........................jk nice post. Thanks :)
Bogon Vdemotch Expert Intervention Caldari State 1	Posted - 2013.01.30 21:10:00 - [27] - Quote Not that i disagree with the general notion of this post, but I've caught heavies from behind while they're hacking, dumped a whole clip from a GEK into them and have them turn and waste me with an hmg before I can get to cover. A good heavy goes 50+/4. a good assault goes 20/5. You do the math. While I agree heavies should have an advantage in a face to face confrontation, they have way too much of an advantage now.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 283	Posted - 2013.01.30 21:33:00 - [28] - Quote This thread is the only nerf Heavies need.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 21:39:00 - [29] - Quote Bogon Vdemotch wrote: Not that i disagree with the general notion of this post, Im glad, but that wont stop me from doing this... Bogon Vdemotch wrote: but I've caught heavies from behind while they're hacking, dumped a whole clip from a GEK into them and have them turn and waste me with an hmg before I can get to cover. The average heavy in a Mark 1 suit has approximately 900 HP, 1000 on the high end if they build for it, max skills and forgo an armour repairer. This is important. If you emptied an entire clip from a GEK assault rifle, at 32.5 damage a shot, and 60 rounds total (at 750 rpm you are looking at what.. 5 seconds? 4 and a half?) you will have just done 1950 damage before the 8% damage boost from weaponry 4 you -should- have. for a total of 2106 damage. Now lets be more specific. My heavy Mark 1 suit, with 2 ranks of shield control and 4 combat mechanics (or whatever it is called) has 109 shield and 778 armour hp. for a total of 887 health. in order to kill me with a Gek, without weaponry you need to land 28 of your shots. less than 50% accuracy, and even less than that is needed with weaponry 4 as then it barely takes over 25 hits. My mark II Heavy has even less health. So no. no heavy can take what you just described, you were either low on ammo and not using a full clip, or and possibly in addition to. you missed. A lot. I dont blame you here, aiming is hard some times. But the fact remains. You missed. Dont fire from the hip if you are going to do it, or aim center mass and dont try and get the headshot damage boost where the spray will hurt more. Long story short. If you dont miss any shots it will take you less than 2 seconds with the GEK's RoF to kill a heavy. If you fail to do so, you missed. Bogon Vdemotch wrote: A good heavy goes 50+/4. a good assault goes 20/5. You do the math. My absolute best is 32/4 and thats because i spent half the game in a turret. My best out of a turret/vehicle was 28/3 and it was because I was obviously fighting noobs and had a logi helping me out (also I got to call down an orbital). I dont mean to brag but I am a damned good heavy, and 50/4 is WAY out of what I could do unless the enemy team is having issues with either their brain or their internet.. The guy with an AR and Militia fits who is just trying out the game who runs with me? frequently matches my kills with 2-3 more deaths. He kicks my ass in WP though because he has a Rez on him to get other team members back up. Please. Dont exaggerate. And yes. You did exaggerate. A lot. Bogon Vdemotch wrote: While I agree heavies should have an advantage in a face to face confrontation, they have way too much of an advantage now. The advantage is a lack of education. Yes I can run rough numbers (not exact numbers) like this in my head mid game. Thats why I do as well as I do with a heavy. If someone replies saying heavies are too powerful I want examples and your numbers behind how it happens. As it stands lasting 2 seconds instead of 1 against a GEK with a theoretical perfect accuracy and less of an ability to shoot back isnt much of an advantage.
Dachande Anasazi IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 22:10:00 - [30] - Quote I wrote this on another thread but will repost and add Personally I think the game is balanced. Remember the MMO/RPG aspect. It is supposed to be like that because of roles. The heavies role is to LIVE. However coordinated effort can kill heavies EASILY. Like super easily. Think team fortress 2. Seriously a scout could not just rush a heavy he had to circle him. SAME THING in Dust. Also try using different weapons (I am a logistics). If I come at a heavy straight up with a AR. I expect to be killed. However if using other lesser used weapons such as a mass diver. Or even nades. Nades WILL kill a heavy. As for balancing (my idea can be very bad). The problem is we skill into different suit types. how about we put SP into suits to get std, adv, or proto. But can use ALL the different suits (heavies, scouts etc.). Personally I am fine with the way things are. Heavies are tanks. Scouts are DPS, Logi are healers..w/e (no idea about assaults) But I think my idea would be satisfactory to all the people. It doesn't nerf anything and gives access to all. This way all the whiners who scream nerf can just BUY a heavy suit without using precious sp. Also the heavy doesn't become useless by being nerfed.



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