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A perspective on how to deal with Heavies

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Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:20:00 - [1] - Quote So earlier today on a different site someone asked for help for dealing with heavies, it was on a different form. But the answer I wrote up seems to have helped a few people there. And maybe If I am lucky posting it here will make a few people who cry for nerfs realize whats actually happening. I run as a heavy, I run against heavies as other suits. This is how you can beat them by playing smart, instead of just crying for nerfs. Heavies have a few exploitable weaknesses but first you have to know their strengths. They have lots of health and access to the heavy weapon slot. The health lets them stay around in a fight a lot longer but can also be a major downfall. Heavies get cocky, we think we are invincible, and we will wander out of cover into the open and overextend ourselves into a kill box when we are on the attack. Second, the heavy weapon slot grants access to two weapons at the moment, the forge gun (if you get hit with one of these its to the re spawn vats with you) and the HMG (which seems to be the sore point). The HMG is a monster up close, and will shred infantry out in the open without breaking a sweat. Range Stats you need to know: Assault Rifle Max Range: 78m Optimal Range: 1 - 35m Heavy Machine Gun Max Range: 59m Optimal Range: 1 - 34m Meta Level: 1 Now, the Optimal Ranges of both weapons are close, but the assault rifle can hurt the heavy from ranges where the heavy cant shoot back. You need to know this, and the ranges specifically because you cant try and trade hits from the heavy even at your optimal range. Its a terrible idea and it wont work out very well for you. One easy way to kill heavies is to stick 50m+ out away from them and peg them till they fall. Your rifle retains amazing accuracy at that range, where the HMGs spread really hurts us. You will bring us down at extreme range before we bring you down/move into range. Cover Now that the above isnt always an option. the next best thing is cover. You guys with the AR's may not notice this much, but unless you are hip firing you probably noticed that unless you can only see their head or they are completely crouched behind cover, you generally dont care. Even with L1 in AR Operation you can wield a militia assault rifle accurately enough to reliably hit almost all your shots into 1/4 of an exposed body. Cover doesnt hurt you when you shoot much. And so most of you think it wont help you either. That circle the heavy has, shots go -everywhere- in that circle. If we get the circle so its only on you, you are dead. however if part of that circle is obscured (even by half) it limits our dps by HALF. Keep half your torso behind a wall, stand behind a barricade. Do ANYTHING besides let us see your whole body. Iv been killed countless times by a guy wielding an AR trading hits with me simply because half my shots or more hit the cover instead of him. War of Attrition We have lots of health. But the MK1 heavies a lot of people still use armour tank with 700-800 HP. their shields only have 100 HP, and they dont recharge often, and armour repairs come back slowly. A common tactic people use to bring down heavies is to pop out and take out their shields and a bit of armour, then go back into hiding to let their shields regen from the return fire. This has two effects. The heavies armour will slowly get lower and lower making them panic, and in the brief moment where your accuracy is at its best his is at its worst and you can damage his armour again (once your shields are back up) and he can only damage your shields before you run away and repeat. Its a slow process, but the heavy runs as fast as you walk. you control where the engagement happens. So dont make it happen on his terms. Grenades Remember that comment of heavies running as fast as you walk? Grenades are hell for them. Scout suits+shotties Heavies have a poor turn speed, its even slower when we are shooting. The Scout suits are the best to capitalize on this, but assaults can do it too. Dont run right at us, sneak around us, get into our blind spot and punish us. Its rock paper scissors. Scouts are the bane of heavies, heavies are the bane of AR/assault suits, and it sounds as if AR/assault have little problem handling the Scouts. If a scout gets to a heavy (which isnt very hard) the fight is basically over right there. Speed within a range 0-15 or 0-20 meters you are dead if a heavy gets a bead on you. But we cant turn very fast, not nearly as fast as you can run across our screen, dont run at us, dont stop moving, if you are in a heavies kill zone get out of the kill zone. At that range an assault suit can run fast enough that the heavy will have a lot of trouble keeping a bead on you. You might not kill the heavy if you have to run like this, but its better than giving him a free kill. Spool up We get more accurate as we keep firing, and we can keep firing for a while. Our guns will overheat before long if we keep doing it however. So we have a choice, if we want to hold maximum accuracy with minimum spread we need to hold down the trigger. This is deadly for you. How do you avoid it? Dont give us a target long enough. This was mentioned in the war of attrition but it deserves its own point. If we keep firing when we cant see you we retain accuracy but waste ammo and risk overheating. If we stop firing then we are less accurate when you pop back out. Just dont pop out for long.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:21:00 - [2] - Quote Snipers: Snipers in a 1v1 scenario have the advantage of range over everyone. However without support unless the heavy is stuck completely out in the open or has to cross a large stretch of land snipers should look for other targets unless they have a friend or ally nearby who can take advantage of a temporarily wounded heavy. The Mark I Heavy suit can soak a snipers shot with their shields without really caring. The Mark II Heavy Suit takes 2 shots to drop their shields, and then another 3 to kill them with a standard rifle. Frequently if there is no combat to be happening within the next 10-15 seconds ill just walk out in a MK II Heavy suit and stand there (or spin, or jump) to draw sniper fire/check to see if there is a sniper and duck away into cover after the second hit finishes off my shields. It wastes the time of the sniper, draws their focus, and possibly wastes ammo if they dont have a nano-hive. Given a Mark I suit cant do that as well (100 vs 300 shield), and it may actually be worth the snipers time to rip off chunks of armor. But otherwise unless the heavy has no way of breaking LOS with you or you have a friend close enough to capitalize on the situation (as most heavies run an armour rep anyway, and watch the minimap for friendlies), id find a better target than a full health Heavy. (my second favorite fitting is a sniper fit) Conclusion: This is for solo use, ideally you will have friends nearby to help deal with a heavy. In which case you use squad level tactics. The heavy suit is a commanding presence on the battlefield, but its really easy to overwhelm with even 2 people. It has no 'oh hell iv gotta run away now' mode when it hits the fan and it has no way to reach another engagement quickly (except for the LAV spam, but that takes time too, its hard to control, and they are easy to kill unless your entire team is completely ignoring anti-tank (even a meta 1 HMG will shred a standard LAV)). Abuse the heavies weaknesses, and for the love of god dont let them play their strengths. If anyone has any other advice or additions I would welcome them! (I would also personally welcome advice as a heavy on how to deal with scouts/shotties) How do you deal with a Heavy? as a Heavy what tends to kill you or get you killed? Editors Note: Iv killed Heavies (or escaped them) in the ways mentioned using non heavy suits as well have been on the receiving end of them when I run Heavy. I primarily use Heavy suits and that is where my skills are tied up, but even the stock militia fits with no real specialization is more than enough to pull this (at least the points relevant to an AR/assault suit) stuff off.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 04:24:00 - [3] - Quote All of this has been said before on here, and many times by many people. However I dont believe that as many of these points have been compiled into just a few posts as is the case above.. hopefully having it condensed helps a few people..
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:52:00 - [4] - Quote Cpt Murd0ck wrote: Shotgun scout is definitely the way forward when I see a heavy its easy prey. Shotgun scouts make me swear. Frequently. Denak Kalamari wrote: For short, scout shotties rely on stealth and lure tactics to score kills. If you keep your guard up, think like a scout, deny him flanking or cover and be unpredictable, you will make a scout's life a lot harder. I try and keep it in mind, but some times its all I can do.. making their lives harder that is, if a scout+shotty wants me dead, and I am in a heavy suit, odds are I am dead. Entrei Blackstorm wrote: Dang it Torr, why you making people use their brain to counter heavies by providing proven strategies? wouldn't it be easier to just cry for a nerf? Oh wait, the nerf threads pop up like every 5 minutes In any event, nice post. +1. Thanks! :) General Tiberius1 wrote: i have a similar thread floating around, but +1 for a much longer, well thought out post, whish we could combine the two Thank you for the kind words, and the reason I posted this was because its more compiled than a few of the other threads out there with similar purpose :) Chunky Munkey wrote: Very well written, intelligent, and clearly experienced advice. Well done, you absolute scoundrel. Scoundrel?! I am not a.. wait.. yes I am. Carry on :)
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 13:54:00 - [5] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: As a heavy id like to point out, we are quite susceptible to forge guns.... Everything is rather susceptible to forge guns :) That said thank you everyone for contributing to the discussion!
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 20:48:00 - [6] - Quote Gelan Corbaine wrote: Giving away our secrets ? You traitor ! Die ! ..........................jk nice post. Thanks :)
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 21:39:00 - [7] - Quote Bogon Vdemotch wrote: Not that i disagree with the general notion of this post, Im glad, but that wont stop me from doing this... Bogon Vdemotch wrote: but I've caught heavies from behind while they're hacking, dumped a whole clip from a GEK into them and have them turn and waste me with an hmg before I can get to cover. The average heavy in a Mark 1 suit has approximately 900 HP, 1000 on the high end if they build for it, max skills and forgo an armour repairer. This is important. If you emptied an entire clip from a GEK assault rifle, at 32.5 damage a shot, and 60 rounds total (at 750 rpm you are looking at what.. 5 seconds? 4 and a half?) you will have just done 1950 damage before the 8% damage boost from weaponry 4 you -should- have. for a total of 2106 damage. Now lets be more specific. My heavy Mark 1 suit, with 2 ranks of shield control and 4 combat mechanics (or whatever it is called) has 109 shield and 778 armour hp. for a total of 887 health. in order to kill me with a Gek, without weaponry you need to land 28 of your shots. less than 50% accuracy, and even less than that is needed with weaponry 4 as then it barely takes over 25 hits. My mark II Heavy has even less health. So no. no heavy can take what you just described, you were either low on ammo and not using a full clip, or and possibly in addition to. you missed. A lot. I dont blame you here, aiming is hard some times. But the fact remains. You missed. Dont fire from the hip if you are going to do it, or aim center mass and dont try and get the headshot damage boost where the spray will hurt more. Long story short. If you dont miss any shots it will take you less than 2 seconds with the GEK's RoF to kill a heavy. If you fail to do so, you missed. Bogon Vdemotch wrote: A good heavy goes 50+/4. a good assault goes 20/5. You do the math. My absolute best is 32/4 and thats because i spent half the game in a turret. My best out of a turret/vehicle was 28/3 and it was because I was obviously fighting noobs and had a logi helping me out (also I got to call down an orbital). I dont mean to brag but I am a damned good heavy, and 50/4 is WAY out of what I could do unless the enemy team is having issues with either their brain or their internet.. The guy with an AR and Militia fits who is just trying out the game who runs with me? frequently matches my kills with 2-3 more deaths. He kicks my ass in WP though because he has a Rez on him to get other team members back up. Please. Dont exaggerate. And yes. You did exaggerate. A lot. Bogon Vdemotch wrote: While I agree heavies should have an advantage in a face to face confrontation, they have way too much of an advantage now. The advantage is a lack of education. Yes I can run rough numbers (not exact numbers) like this in my head mid game. Thats why I do as well as I do with a heavy. If someone replies saying heavies are too powerful I want examples and your numbers behind how it happens. As it stands lasting 2 seconds instead of 1 against a GEK with a theoretical perfect accuracy and less of an ability to shoot back isnt much of an advantage.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.30 22:40:00 - [8] - Quote Bogon Vdemotch wrote: I see heavy builds regularly putting up those numbers. i'll make sure to shoot you a screenshot, since you don't believe me. Certainly the latest noobwave is inflating those numbers but I dare you to argue the ratio. A heavy is pulling double the kills for the same deaths or less. Id like to see the screenshot, to be fair Im sure its happened, but I doubt it happens reliably.. especially with people in a suit and not a vehicle/turret. (From my own experience iv seen a guy with a assault suit and a AR go 34/0.. he was in a tank. The suit had nothing to do with it.) And a ration of 2-4 to 1 is pretty standard (if your team is doing alright) regardless of what non logistics suit (and even a bunch of them) you play if you are average to good and you dont get an unlucky game.. Your initial ratio was 12.5+ to 1. with a culmination of 50 kills total, 1/3 the enemies entire reserve. Which is way off the end of the curve for the average game/player. A player who can pull that off reliably will likely be skilled enough to be getting this particular ratio no matter what he/she runs unless an exploit is involved.
Torr Wrath Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 58	Posted - 2013.01.31 04:12:00 - [9] - Quote Before I forget to ask, Other versions of these articles may be helpful, im only really good enough with heavies, and people trying to nerf them seems to be the FotM, but im sure you other specialists know a few tips that would tend to make newbies lives easier against people with similar classes. This thread is for heavies mostly, but a "how to not get killed by snipers" or a grenade dodgers guide for the MD's.. who knows. Having a player experienced with something telling you how it works and how to beat it is always useful.

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