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Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I've complained in the past and have seen a few complaints about how 'rockets don't go where you aim them'. After doing a little physics in my head I have concluded that they probably do go where you aim them, we just aren't understanding what 'aiming' means. I personally am a mass driver user and if MD rounds went exactly where I pointed most rounds would be in space at the moment, or perhaps in perpetual orbit around the planet.
Tl;dr: If you want a tutorial for this sort of thing that takes less than ten seconds to read I'm not your guy. Read on at your own risk
Anyway, I am not in game so cannot figure out the crucial element to this (rocket speed), but I encourage people to respond with thier own tips and detail on how to use rocket turrets. I really think they could start to be used effectively enough to the point where people will want to nerf them. Perhaps we could stage a rocket gunner kill competition. SO here is what I am thinking.
First as a gunner you need to have in mind a few things: 1) How fast is my ship going (This is probably anywhere between 0 and 120ish m/s) 2) What direction are we moving in 3) How far is my target 4) How fast does a rocket fly (I think this stat is in game so if somebody could respond with it it'd be nice) Based on gameplay footage it seems like they are close to around 100 m/s. But dropships with afterburners can outrun rocket installations/swarm missiles.
Gathering Data: 1) Now an indicator for occupants of ship speed would be nice, but that could just be more or less intuitive based off of a sense of '% of max speed'. 2) This only matters relative to ground targets. You can orient yourself objects on the ground, but also once familiar with a map, I imagine pilots coming up with practical strafing runs and patterns. 3) When you aim at a target, the HUD will tell you this. VERY Important. 4) See above.
Applying information intuitively: As a rocket door gunner, you want to be able to put damage on target as fluidly and consistently as possible. This is the reason that the targetting reticle exists. What you can use it to do, is this:
1) In your mind, draw an imaginary circle around the center of the targetting reticle. Then as you speed up and create distance between you and the target imagine the circle growing. I think, what you are effectively doing then is estimating your ships angular velocity relative to the target. 2) Next imagine a line, on the ground, infinitely going through the target you are aiming at that has the same trajectory your ship is currently moving. 3) Now imagine this line and circle from before, only intersecting. 4) Finally, if you are closing distance on an object, you would want to fire at the line and circle's crossing point that is closest to you. This is because the missile/rocket carries the same velocity forward as the dropship was moving when the rocket was fired. If you are moving away, you fire at the intersection furthest from you. The line will be the easiest part to get right in your mind, while the circle will be harder to estimate. 5) Eventually you will really want to project the circle onto the ground as an elipse (oval) created by the plane on the ground intersecting a cone coming out of your gun, but that is a little more complicated to think about.
Let me know your thoughts on this technique, and other tips you have. I'm going to test it out tonight. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:So I've complained in the past and have seen a few complaints about how 'rockets don't go where you aim them'. After doing a little physics in my head I have concluded that they probably do go where you aim them, we just aren't understanding what 'aiming' means. I personally am a mass driver user and if MD rounds went exactly where I pointed most rounds would be in space at the moment, or perhaps in perpetual orbit around the planet.
Tl;dr: If you want a tutorial for this sort of thing that takes less than ten seconds to read I'm not your guy. Read on at your own risk
Anyway, I am not in game so cannot figure out the crucial element to this (rocket speed), but I encourage people to respond with thier own tips and detail on how to use rocket turrets. I really think they could start to be used effectively enough to the point where people will want to nerf them. Perhaps we could stage a rocket gunner kill competition. SO here is what I am thinking.
First as a gunner you need to have in mind a few things: 1) How fast is my ship going (This is probably anywhere between 0 and 120ish m/s) 2) What direction are we moving in 3) How far is my target 4) How fast does a rocket fly (I think this stat is in game so if somebody could respond with it it'd be nice) Based on gameplay footage it seems like they are close to around 100 m/s. But dropships with afterburners can outrun rocket installations/swarm missiles.
Gathering Data: 1) Now an indicator for occupants of ship speed would be nice, but that could just be more or less intuitive based off of a sense of '% of max speed'. 2) This only matters relative to ground targets. You can orient yourself objects on the ground, but also once familiar with a map, I imagine pilots coming up with practical strafing runs and patterns. 3) When you aim at a target, the HUD will tell you this. VERY Important. 4) See above.
Applying information intuitively: As a rocket door gunner, you want to be able to put damage on target as fluidly and consistently as possible. This is the reason that the targetting reticle exists. What you can use it to do, is this:
1) In your mind, draw an imaginary circle around the center of the targetting reticle. Then as you speed up and create distance between you and the target imagine the circle growing. I think, what you are effectively doing then is estimating your ships angular velocity relative to the target. 2) Next imagine a line, on the ground, infinitely going through the target you are aiming at that has the same trajectory your ship is currently moving. 3) Now imagine this line and circle from before, only intersecting. 4) Finally, if you are closing distance on an object, you would want to fire at the line and circle's crossing point that is closest to you. This is because the missile/rocket carries the same velocity forward as the dropship was moving when the rocket was fired. If you are moving away, you fire at the intersection furthest from you. The line will be the easiest part to get right in your mind, while the circle will be harder to estimate. 5) Eventually you will really want to project the circle onto the ground as an elipse (oval) created by the plane on the ground intersecting a cone coming out of your gun, but that is a little more complicated to think about.
Let me know your thoughts on this technique, and other tips you have. I'm going to test it out tonight.
This is a great thread well done iv been asking my gunners to put something like this up for a while ( im a pilot not a gunner otherwise i would have ) i regularly go 0/0 k/d with over 1000 wp piloting my dropship with my regular gunners netting an easy 10-15 kills each with eithe the cyclic missile launcher or the stabalised blaster ( getting kills like that from a dropship isnt an easy task and requires allot of skill and training). i tryed to gun for a while on the dropship and was useless so i stuck to what im good at and thats piloting lol |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
---redacted link--- It isn't to difficult to visualize along with youtubes of gunners. Albeit it is a little more difficult, because you aren't controlling the turret view. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUO8zTypuPc It isn't to difficult to visualize along with youtubes of gunners. Albeit it is a little more difficult, because you aren't controlling the turret view.
eek dodgy video pre lifting of the NDA |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:---redacted link--- It isn't to difficult to visualize along with youtubes of gunners. Albeit it is a little more difficult, because you aren't controlling the turret view. eek dodgy video pre lifting of the NDA
I'm deleting that link then... |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
This is all true, and that's why cycled missile launcher is best. It puts out more missiles faster than the others. Unfortunately, it also has an extremely small blast radius. You posted that you use a mass driver. Mass drivers have the largest blast radius of any weapon in the game. With the low damage from missiles and slow rate of fire, a direct hit is needed to kill a player in decent gear. Players are small, so using a moving missile turret to kill a player is -_-. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:This is all true, and that's why cycled missile launcher is best. It puts out more missiles faster than the others. Unfortunately, it also has an extremely small blast radius. You posted that you use a mass driver. Mass drivers have the largest blast radius of any weapon in the game. With the low damage from missiles and slow rate of fire, a direct hit is needed to kill a player in decent gear. Players are small, so using a moving missile turret to kill a player is -_-.
I agree that right now it is pretty haphazard. But I think what we need are mental tools for gunners and a philosophy that pushes pilots toward flight patterns that give gunners 'deadzones' where their angular velocity relative to the target makes firing easier.
Example: Smooth orbits means targets will stay at the center of view and people tracking you on the ground may have a more difficult time hitting you, but leading/trailing targets is much harder to do while orbiting than while conducting straight strafes.
You are right about the MD, my point there was just about aiming mechanics and not so much splash damage. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 19:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sorry, I'm not a pilot, but I just had a revelation. I'm not sure how difficult it is to do with the controls, but a much more effective tactic than orbiting or strafing with one side facing your target is yawing 90 degrees and having the dropship's nose face the target. This should mean that both door gunners will get a chance to shoot at what you strafe past and more of your fire is focused on the target. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 20:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
The missile turrets hit the sides of the dropship when pointed in a forward direction. You need to give a fair amount of room, so it's usually best to hit targets on your sides, and not directly in front.
Some dropship pilots can fly sideways. It only lets one side shoot, but that one gunner will have an easy time hitting targets underneath him. Since the dropships can't hit anything directly in front of them, flying sideways effectively makes one side the nose of the dropship.
Although I've only seen one pilot able to do this... |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
168
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
The drop ship, when piloted by a good pilot, is actually a more stable weapons platform than a HAV.
My constant complaints about the broken missile turrets are because they Used to Work. An update later and they work completely differently.
They are broken. Bad code, bad update, no reaction from CCP, no response, no possible fix or hint that the New Broken Missile Turret is the One True Missile Turret. I don't know whether it was the server move and/or the client update that killed them but something did.
If the HAV is stopped, the main turret is straight ahead and the Missile Turret is straight ahead and the HAV's turret is Not Moving At All the missile works like it did in the past. But at that point just hit it with the main gun. Any deviation will have missile tracks leaving offset by random meters from the actual turret, including over head. Not to mention at some strange angle deviating from the position of any of the above. The missile track would be in parallel with the launcher. Not at a totally different angle.
I will not use them on a HAV or LAV. I would use them on your DS. Just to test. One failure and that would be it.
There is good news. I am not spending any SP on any missile turret related skill. A substantial savings I might add.
The OP is great, BTW. And the physics is exactly how they used to work. The missile left the turret in line with the turret and leading was important. You are to be commended for explaining what gunners need to know. Probably for being a good pilot as well. |
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Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kal, I bet many of the 'random meters' issues comes from client server problems. I know for my mass driver I was having reload issues, I think because I was using wireless creating unnecessary latency. But the latency was exasperated by my frenzied mashing of the trigger causing what I'm guessing was the client to register an empty gun, while the server only had half a clip left. The same may be the case with rockets.
The moment where you think you are telling the server to hit 'that guy' may not actually be the moment you think it is, on the server that is. I have found weapons to be especially glitchy when I leave no times between rounds.
Connecting my ps3 to my router helped a good bit, but I still have issues when I get in a frenzy. I can tell you I died stubbornly and a frustrangly huge number of times from this glitch. |
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