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Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.01.28 05:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
OK so the last few skirmish matches ive been in have had puggys leaving their incompasated bodies in front of me peaty badly. i am a logi so i could have got them up.
here is the idea.
the mcc a has 80% armor left
MCC B has 3 bars left
in this case the mcc b will be destroyed and should cound as a tie.
if we were to take out the clones part of this game the MCC a would destroy MCC B before 5 null cannons could destroy MCC A.
So why is it that when we have 80% armor and we run out of clones we still lose? the MCC is destroyed... that is the objective isnt it? IS it not that the MCC that is providing the clones? so if the enemy clones get destroyed shortly after you run out wouldn't it be a tie at the very least. not a loss.
funny thing is. there was a game where we had 3 bars on their side and i was telling my squad if we were able to tell the enitre team to pull out and avoid being killed we have this game. but there is no play it safe get to a safe spot and stay alive recall button. much less global instant commands. sure i can turn on voice on team/squad but i put it on squad i cant hear team and if i put it on team then there is too much communication flying around and it gets mixed up.
idea 2
lets get vgs commands that allow basic communication. even if i were to open up chat go to team and hit hey everyone lets just hold a and b. the average person doesn't open chat unless they need to check corp chat or something.
I realise that idea a is a cruch and probly would not fly. dont care its something that pisses me off when you get pubs that suck vs 2 or 3 corp squads and your 1 squad can just bearily keep it alive and 3 or 4 of your pubs on your side have 0 kills 10+ deaths. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
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Posted - 2013.01.28 09:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well, not really. You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of the Dust 514.
The objective in skirmish matches is not to destroy the enemy MCC, it is to capture the district we're fighting over. That can be captured in one of two ways, either destroy the enemy MCC and cause them to retreat or kill all the enemy clones leaving the battlefield empty.
Also, once we get player controlled MCCs (probably only in nullsec) there will be an additional option - withdraw the MCC and surrender the battle. This will obviously be a widely used option as MCCs are not going to be cheap. Probably a Dust asset with a price tag along the lines of an EVE asset.
I am hoping NPC MCCs will also start withdrawing sometime in the near future as it would add a larger sense of reality to the match. Letting the MCC be destroyed is just bad strategy and horrible tactics.
In essence, the MCC is a surface aerial support vehicle for a battle supported by the war barge in low orbit and EVE ships in high orbit. All these support structures are there to aid the ground assault force. If that force is gone, the MCC is useless, the war barge has no role and the EVE ships will just warp out to avoid the inevitable retaliation on its way.
Planet districts are a capitalistic resource everyone fights over. The null cannons are just there to aid the ground forces eradicate the enemy. |
Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 22:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:The objective in skirmish matches is not to destroy the enemy MCC, it is to capture the district we're fighting over. That can be captured in one of two ways, either destroy the enemy MCC and cause them to retreat or kill all the enemy clones leaving the battlefield empty.
So with this in mind we should be able to fight to the last man. if i am on the ground and know that the hostiles MCC is about the be destroyed i fight tooth and nail to stay alive and practice grullia warfare. because once their MCC is out all it takes is a few orbital strikes and communication to get more clones on the ground and kill the unsupported (by the MCC) clones gone. They would probably surrender if their lives had value but i would just suicide so i could regroup with my corp/team. Again going back to a tie if not me winning as they have no support. i was on the ground before the clone limit was reached.
Now a serious flaw with this is Snipers and other campers would just wait it out just to make the game last longer. so i see two solutions.
first one being that we caculate the MCC A's health vs all null cannons plus MCC B's offenses.. (total damage min with the assumption that 1 min after clones deplete all null cannons are for the side with clones still. if the time that the MCC's tank is able to withstand this damage is longer then MCC's B tank vs just MCC's A damage + 30 seconds of Null cannons under control of MCC A's team. Then MCC's B lost... weather MCC's A loses is up to weather you want ties or not.
Solution 2 being make MCC's A clones visible on map (maybe a blob so direction and exact position is unknown.) the story behind this is that the clone that was providing EW on the MCC had to abandon ECCM post to help take the planet and thus the MCC B's sensors are working on the ground..... (this is up to you)
Grit Breather wrote:Also, once we get player controlled MCCs (probably only in nullsec) there will be an additional option - withdraw the MCC and surrender the battle. This will obviously be a widely used option as MCCs are not going to be cheap. Probably a Dust asset with a price tag along the lines of an EVE asset.
I am hoping NPC MCCs will also start withdrawing sometime in the near future as it would add a larger sense of reality to the match. Letting the MCC be destroyed is just bad strategy and horrible tactics.
Yes player owned assasts will be a nice change of pace, but from what i understand we will always have high sec skirmishes that were supplied by instant battles. the first thing we are going to see is people causing troubles (free accounts means easy trouble) one thing i could do is fly the MCC. yay. oh my buddy is losing the game and is on the other side. lets just withdraw the MCC from battle and they lose. hence i doubt they will give the option to NPC assets. and as such there is a need for more robust situations. hence the feedback form.
Grit Breather wrote:
In essence, the MCC is a surface aerial support vehicle for a battle supported by the war barge in low orbit and EVE ships in high orbit. All these support structures are there to aid the ground assault force. If that force is gone, the MCC is useless, the war barge has no role and the EVE ships will just warp out to avoid the inevitable retaliation on its way.
Planet districts are a capitalistic resource everyone fights over. The null cannons are just there to aid the ground forces eradicate the enemy.
So in essence if they, MCC B, are allowing themselves to get so close to being destroyed they are forfeiting a hard won ground target when they warp away hastely because the MCC A is still able to destroy it, and should be considered a tie after a point? They will have to repair themselves which would be plenty of time for the other side to mount a new MCC to attack. (granted logi ships should be able to do the repair quickly. for the sake of augment i am choseing to allow time for MCC A's team to come back)
1 question i have from your response. which ship has the clones /communication /infantry electronic warfare. i imagine there is some EW in effect because having MCC, shouldn't we be able to id all targets on the ground in line of site of the MCC. The warbarge has the clones? or the MCC?
Grit Breather wrote:Well, not really. You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of the Dust 514.
No need to say things about the poster like this. i could insight off topic retaliation. if would be nicer to just answer the question if you don't have something nice to say. |
byte modal
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2013.01.28 23:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well, as long as I have a fresh and waiting clone sitting nice and safe for me to be transferred into as soon as a red sniper tags me in the head, I'm all for charging the field. If, however, my team's clone reserves are empty, then there is nothing for my consciousness to transfer to should I be killed yet again on the battlefield---lost forever. I am immortal only for as long as I have a fresh supply of clones to jump to. If clone reserves have been depleted, then I'm absolutely NOT going to end my existence for a corporation already pissed because my team could not pull the victory they hired me to do.
meow.
- me. |
byte modal
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 00:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Anstis Anion wrote:Grit Breather wrote:Well, not really. You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of the Dust 514. No need to say things about the poster like this. i could insight off topic retaliation. if would be nicer to just answer the question if you don't have something nice to say.
FWIW, I didn't read anything negative in the poster's first line. I think he was just making the point that, because of your basic misunderstandings of formal objectives in a Skirmish match, your assumptions and arguments for/against those assumptions were misguided. Not that your opinions on your assumptions are necessarily wrong, just that your understanding of mechanics were wrong. I do believe no harm was intended, especially in the context that corrections and further explanations were given as well.
=)
all the best.... |
Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 01:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would immagine that there would be back up clones off site that we would download to should our position or ship be lost. otherwise every time we lose a match we would would be fresh recruits. and not the skillfull clones we are now.
It is best not to dig up any issues that a post may or maynot have found offensive as it only brings the thread off topic. |
Tregar Kerrigan
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
36
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 01:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
byte modal wrote:Well, as long as I have a fresh and waiting clone sitting nice and safe for me to be transferred into as soon as a red sniper tags me in the head, I'm all for charging the field. If, however, my team's clone reserves are empty, then there is nothing for my consciousness to transfer to should I be killed yet again on the battlefield---lost forever. I am immortal only for as long as I have a fresh supply of clones to jump to. If clone reserves have been depleted, then I'm absolutely NOT going to end my existence for a corporation already pissed because my team could not pull the victory they hired me to do.
meow.
- me.
This.
At OP, read the backstory article for DUST. It's 8 or so parts long, and details what life is like for a bunny that can't clone back after a battle. Once the MCC is gone, you pack up, terminate all of the clone on the ground, and get them out of the danger zone. If you run out of clones, your MCC has no reason to stay, because as long as it is on field it runs the risk of being destroyed for no gain. |
Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
53
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Posted - 2013.01.29 01:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Don't run out of clones, stop doing suicide charges, get some medics to rev people and heal them to stay back to full.
Multiple victory conditions are good, games go faster and makes people smarter.
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Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 11:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tregar Kerrigan wrote:byte modal wrote:Well, as long as I have a fresh and waiting clone sitting nice and safe for me to be transferred into as soon as a red sniper tags me in the head, I'm all for charging the field. If, however, my team's clone reserves are empty, then there is nothing for my consciousness to transfer to should I be killed yet again on the battlefield---lost forever. I am immortal only for as long as I have a fresh supply of clones to jump to. If clone reserves have been depleted, then I'm absolutely NOT going to end my existence for a corporation already pissed because my team could not pull the victory they hired me to do.
meow.
- me. This. At OP, read the backstory article for DUST. It's 8 or so parts long, and details what life is like for a bunny that can't clone back after a battle. Once the MCC is gone, you pack up, terminate all of the clone on the ground, and get them out of the danger zone. If you run out of clones, your MCC has no reason to stay, because as long as it is on field it runs the risk of being destroyed for no gain.
True. once you are out of clones you have no reason to stay.
once your MCC is destoryed you cant stay.
i am just saying that it is not victory if either side cant stay on the ground.
If you attack a hostial building in a Hostile city clear out the building but lose all but 3 of your guys. how do you expect to be able to acquire anything from the building besides a better defensive stance then out in the open. first you compromised the usefulness of the buildings' orginal defensive points in your initial assault. so now in the short time between your 'victory' and the Hostiles outside grouping up and attacking you now. its not like you are just going to open a can of clones that you 'find' in the building is it?
so you send a bunch of engineers to take the factilitys to lose it to attribution because the locals dont want to see you there and the clones' MCC is seriously damaged enough for some well placed grulia warfare. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
220
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 12:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm not quite sure what's being requested in this thread - you want there to be an ability to 'tie' a match if you run out of clones? How on earth would that ever work?
The point that seems to have been missed is that without clones you may still be able to kill off the enemy MCC but if there are still enemy clones on the field, they could eventually grab all the null cannons and still shoot your MCC out of the sky and you would lose the district because you have no feet on the ground. |
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Anstis Anion
BurgezzE.T.F
Orion Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I'm not quite sure what's being requested in this thread - you want there to be an ability to 'tie' a match if you run out of clones? How on earth would that ever work?
The point that seems to have been missed is that without clones you may still be able to kill off the enemy MCC but if there are still enemy clones on the field, they could eventually grab all the null cannons and still shoot your MCC out of the sky and you would lose the district because you have no feet on the ground.
If the cloneless MCC can finish the job even with out the null canons and still tank all null canons and the other MCC then how is it a vicotry either way? i see it as the airforce finishing a job the army was unable to complete due to casualitys.
1 persons response is that the MCC being allowed to be destoryed is stupid and a player char would pull out due to expense of the MCC. but if a MCC is down to 3 bars it could be destoryed by an MCC with 80% armor before the null cannons can do anything at the current way the game works. so why is it that this kinda action does not result in a stale mate. unless MCC's can go to warp in atosmphere they cant get away from the cloneless MCC and would be destoryed shortly after a 'vicoty by clone depletion'. With this in mind 1 army would be have 0 clones to do anything on the ground. the other army would have no MCC, with the resulting loss of strategic power the MCC Provides.
People keep saying its in the backstory. I am sorry that i have yet to find the back story. if someone could be so kind as to link something that explains the intimate workings of clone day to day actions i would love to read it. |
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