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Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 183	Posted - 2013.01.11 16:45:00 - [1] - Quote So the title herder is my main point here. You shouldn't think of SP like experience points. Currently in Eve SP are completely passively gained, and also in contrast to Dust, SP can be lost. The most SP you can 'but' is through augmentations that just increase your learning speed. SP represents an investment toward what you want to be. SP are not achievements, they are not something that shows you are a better player. We should really all just get used to thinking of them as passive mostly. The fact that you don't get as much once you hit your cap shouldn't disappoint you. In eve, for the most part, people roughly get the same amount of points each day if they are training something. In eve skills take time, you plug them in and wait, you have to learn patience. You feel like you are being cheated because you are impatient. Within about 1 weeks worth of playing it won't make a difference whether you happened to miss a day or two's worth of passive skills because you will be waiting on a skill that takes 10 days worth of SP to get. If they changed something I think it should be that you could get SP through something significantly cooperative, such as winning x corp matches or something.
BUGSBUNNY LOONEY A.C.M.E Corp 7	Posted - 2013.01.11 16:48:00 - [2] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: So the title herder is my main point here. You shouldn't think of SP like experience points. Currently in Eve SP are completely passively gained, and also in contrast to Dust, SP can be lost. The most SP you can 'but' is through augmentations that just increase your learning speed. SP represents an investment toward what you want to be. SP are not achievements, they are not something that shows you are a better player. We should really all just get used to thinking of them as passive mostly. The fact that you don't get as much once you hit your cap shouldn't disappoint you. In eve, for the most part, people roughly get the same amount of points each day if they are training something. In eve skills take time, you plug them in and wait, you have to learn patience. You feel like you are being cheated because you are impatient. Within about 1 weeks worth of playing it won't make a difference whether you happened to miss a day or two's worth of passive skills because you will be waiting on a skill that takes 10 days worth of SP to get. If they changed something I think it should be that you could get SP through something significantly cooperative, such as winning x corp matches or something. I agree with you
Frank Devine ZionTCD Legacy Rising 107	Posted - 2013.01.11 16:52:00 - [3] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: So the title herder is my main point here. You shouldn't think of SP like experience points. Currently in Eve SP are completely passively gained, and also in contrast to Dust, SP can be lost. The most SP you can 'but' is through augmentations that just increase your learning speed. SP represents an investment toward what you want to be. SP are not achievements, they are not something that shows you are a better player. We should really all just get used to thinking of them as passive mostly. The fact that you don't get as much once you hit your cap shouldn't disappoint you. In eve, for the most part, people roughly get the same amount of points each day if they are training something. In eve skills take time, you plug them in and wait, you have to learn patience. You feel like you are being cheated because you are impatient. Within about 1 weeks worth of playing it won't make a difference whether you happened to miss a day or two's worth of passive skills because you will be waiting on a skill that takes 10 days worth of SP to get. If they changed something I think it should be that you could get SP through something significantly cooperative, such as winning x corp matches or something. I agree with to to some what on that, we do need to learn patience. CCP said along time ago that it would take 7 years to master everything and that was one of the things that I was excited about. I hate only getting 50sp per match after I have reached that cap but on the bright side it will keep the playing field more balanced out and the players will have to work more as a team to be effective in battle.
William HBonney Imperfects Negative-Feedback 318	Posted - 2013.01.11 16:55:00 - [4] - Quote Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression due in part because that iris what consumers want. But dust ain't like that it isn't for everyone man! You gotta be leet ....dust has to appeal to the largest possible audience. Because the life span of fps games is short...the only way to keepnit alive is constant attention and to make it accessible and fun to play. If people want to feel like they are actually progressing at a good rate there might be something there. Feedback is good and should be heard esp is a bunch of people are saying it.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.11 17:00:00 - [5] - Quote Another thing not yet avaialbe is skill spike and skill cluster augmentations, Im interested in seeing how that will effect our SP gains or the system itself we should keep an eye out for those .
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die 133	Posted - 2013.01.11 17:26:00 - [6] - Quote Let me tell you the rally cry of the CONSOLE only player when someone mentions that this is how they do things in PC based games.... IT may work in eve, but as a FPS you can't strip away the core effectiveness of running and shooting and tell someone it will take them 7 years or so to get a character that can stand up to what the battlefield can throw their way. Give it about a week or two when vehicle only users get some SP into them, to bad you can't use anything but a default swarm launcher on this character, but it is not like you can just choose your second clone; whom you have set up to be anti vehicle from inside the Manus Peaks Ambush Match you find yourself in while facing 5 tanks. Let me put it to you this way. What happens when the entire team is making 50sp per battle, what happens to all the points? Are they just lost to the ether? At the same time, all I am seeing is that people will not play this game, they would rather just sit in a menu watching a number tick up till they get what they want passively and then try to play the game.... while some are still trying to just play the game. The only reason why I am not demanding the HEAD of the person at CCP be chopped off, who thinks this current way of using Skill Points is the way to go - is because I am holding on to one small thread of hope. A possiblity of maybe once a month and a no holds barred weekend, NO stupid cap on points earned.... the double XP weekend should become the no cap weekend....place your bets on when you will see the most activity on the servers. So, I still can't sell my useless Salvage gear, and I can't get enough points to even think about trying those out, and IT is not like I can switch supplies between characters of my own even IF I wanted to.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 968	Posted - 2013.01.11 17:54:00 - [7] - Quote Wakko03 wrote: Give it about a week or two when vehicle only users get some SP into them, to bad you can't use anything but a default swarm launcher on this character, but it is not like you can just choose your second clone; whom you have set up to be anti vehicle from inside the Manus Peaks Ambush Match you find yourself in while facing 5 tanks. It's going to be a lot longer than two weeks before anyone can fit a decent HAV and your starter AV suit will handle the paper tanks quite easily. Those who do spec into AV will do so far faster than vehicle pilots can so they will have the advantage. Heavy users get free starter FG fitting and Assault users get a free SL fitting. You won't need anything more than that for some time, and by then you can buy an advanced version of either of them depending on your skills at the time and do just fine.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.11 19:58:00 - [8] - Quote Skihids wrote: Wakko03 wrote: Give it about a week or two when vehicle only users get some SP into them, to bad you can't use anything but a default swarm launcher on this character, but it is not like you can just choose your second clone; whom you have set up to be anti vehicle from inside the Manus Peaks Ambush Match you find yourself in while facing 5 tanks. It's going to be a lot longer than two weeks before anyone can fit a decent HAV and your starter AV suit will handle the paper tanks quite easily. Those who do spec into AV will do so far faster than vehicle pilots can so they will have the advantage. Heavy users get free starter FG fitting and Assault users get a free SL fitting. You won't need anything more than that for some time, and by then you can buy an advanced version of either of them depending on your skills at the time and do just fine. We will start seeing marauder tanks an protosuits in about 2-3 weeks. We will start seeing marauders that think militia forges kinda tickle, and protosuits that are hard to kill in about three months. DUST is a game where long term planning absolutely showers benefits upon thee.
William HBonney Imperfects Negative-Feedback 318	Posted - 2013.01.11 20:02:00 - [9] - Quote I think the Max per week is 400000 solo proto suits take 2 mil sp...not happening anytime soon.
Appia Vibbia Opus Arcana Orion Empire 4	Posted - 2013.01.11 20:12:00 - [10] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: So the title herder is my main point here. You shouldn't think of SP like experience points. Currently in Eve SP are completely passively gained, and also in contrast to Dust, SP can be lost. The most SP you can 'but' is through augmentations that just increase your learning speed. SP represents an investment toward what you want to be. SP are not achievements, they are not something that shows you are a better player. We should really all just get used to thinking of them as passive mostly. The fact that you don't get as much once you hit your cap shouldn't disappoint you. In eve, for the most part, people roughly get the same amount of points each day if they are training something. In eve skills take time, you plug them in and wait, you have to learn patience. You feel like you are being cheated because you are impatient. Within about 1 weeks worth of playing it won't make a difference whether you happened to miss a day or two's worth of passive skills because you will be waiting on a skill that takes 10 days worth of SP to get. If they changed something I think it should be that you could get SP through something significantly cooperative, such as winning x corp matches or something. Just to point it out, in Dust 514 the passive rate is 20/min. To get that in Eve you would need [(Primary Attribute+Secondary Attribute)/2]=20. That works for the skill groups that you like, when you buy implants. But in Dust 514 you can distribute the SP wherever you want. It doesn't take any longer to increase any one skill with the same multiplyer than it does to improve another. That is not so in Eve.

ChargersGirlLuvsDP Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 49	Posted - 2013.01.11 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote William HBonney wrote: Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression due in part because that iris what consumers want. But dust ain't like that it isn't for everyone man! You gotta be leet ....dust has to appeal to the largest possible audience. Because the life span of fps games is short...the only way to keepnit alive is constant attention and to make it accessible and fun to play. If people want to feel like they are actually progressing at a good rate there might be something there. Feedback is good and should be heard esp is a bunch of people are saying it. This is precisely the point of view that will kill this game. As of now, since we are on TQ, Dust isn't a separate game anymore, it is simply the FPS side of Eve. If you can't accept that, move on to the next arcadey FOTM FPS from CoD. Eve is a niche game, Dust would do well to be a niche game too. MAG was a niche FPS and (despite the lack of real support) it garnered a large, loyal following. If MAG was able to hold the attention of as many people as it did with the pitiful support, imagine the size of the Dust playerbase if they remain set apart in their niche as well as having the continous development cycle (like Eve). It could be epic. It will be epic. So long as CCP doesn't let the FPS monkeys kill Dust.
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2013.01.11 21:43:00 - [12] - Quote William HBonney wrote: Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression due in part because that iris what consumers want. But dust ain't like that it isn't for everyone man! You gotta be leet ....dust has to appeal to the largest possible audience. Because the life span of fps games is short...the only way to keepnit alive is constant attention and to make it accessible and fun to play. If people want to feel like they are actually progressing at a good rate there might be something there. Feedback is good and should be heard esp is a bunch of people are saying it. Sure, keep it accessible and fun to play for the whole 3 weeks that people would take to unlock everything like the normal FPS you solemnly spout as being the greatest. Before they then drop this and go drop another $60 on the newest COD or BF that came out to replace the one they launched 6 months ago. No, I'd rather they keep it niche or semi and avoid having the I want it now crowd out.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2013.01.11 22:33:00 - [13] - Quote Wakko03 wrote: but as a FPS you can't strip away the core effectiveness of running and shooting and tell someone it will take them 7 years or so to get a character that can stand up to what the battlefield can throw their way. This is where the huge misunderstanding of the skill progression system derails the entire debate every time. It takes one week to reach about peak efficiency with a smartly put together fitting and one weapon choice. It will take another month to train up all the support skills for modules, suits, etc. to make an almost as effective as possible fitting. Another month to make enough sp to frost that fitting with a few perks. Vehicles will take longer but from what I have seen on the forums the FPS purists sort of begrudge vehicles anyways. Basically you can spread all of your skills around and have a fairly flat and ineffective character. Or you can use them wisely and stack them in to tiny towers five high and get the most out of them. And no one should make it so you have no other choice but to spend sp wisely and do super good. You should be allowed to mess it up. It would only take seven years to train all the skills for all the weapons, modules, assets, etc. available. But why would you think that one character would have to have maxed out stats in every single available item in the game to survive? Makes no sense. Do you speak manchurian? No? It is almost like saying a person has to learn every single language in order to make it through a week on planet earth without dying a horrible death.
Cade Orion Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2013.01.12 00:06:00 - [14] - Quote William HBonney wrote: Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression due in part because that iris what consumers want. But dust ain't like that it isn't for everyone man! You gotta be leet ....dust has to appeal to the largest possible audience. Because the life span of fps games is short...the only way to keepnit alive is constant attention and to make it accessible and fun to play. If people want to feel like they are actually progressing at a good rate there might be something there. Feedback is good and should be heard esp is a bunch of people are saying it. This is true and I totally agree....Plus this is also a console based game...console gamers are on the norm not as patient and we definitely want to be awarded for our efforts. As I stated in another post. As a gamer when I reach my SP limit....I go to another game. Why bother playing if I'm not getting rewarded. You can't expect and want us to play when we are having all these restrictions put on us. I too love the idea of it taking 7 years to get every skill. Because I'm all about roles on the battlefield I love Dust 514 and have been preaching it to my gamer friends.. I would hate it for something like this to turn them off to this game and it's potential.
arimal lavaren L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 186	Posted - 2013.01.12 00:15:00 - [15] - Quote SP is not supposed to be your only or even main reward mechanism, as far as I can gather that's supposed to be isk. It's hardly accurate to say you're no longer being rewarded when you reach the cap.
ChargersGirlLuvsDP Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 49	Posted - 2013.01.12 00:55:00 - [16] - Quote Cade Orion wrote: William HBonney wrote: Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression due in part because that iris what consumers want. But dust ain't like that it isn't for everyone man! You gotta be leet ....dust has to appeal to the largest possible audience. Because the life span of fps games is short...the only way to keepnit alive is constant attention and to make it accessible and fun to play. If people want to feel like they are actually progressing at a good rate there might be something there. Feedback is good and should be heard esp is a bunch of people are saying it. This is true and I totally agree....Plus this is also a console based game...console gamers are on the norm not as patient and we definitely want to be awarded for our efforts. As I stated in another post. As a gamer when I reach my SP limit....I go to another game. Why bother playing if I'm not getting rewarded. You can't expect and want us to play when we are having all these restrictions put on us. I too love the idea of it taking 7 years to get every skill. Because I'm all about roles on the battlefield I love Dust 514 and have been preaching it to my gamer friends.. I would hate it for something like this to turn them off to this game and it's potential. This post is a perfect example of the typical FPS monkey's thought process. They speak in broad strokes, painting themselves as the only important demographic and that without them, your game is doomed to failure. At least he is honest about his attention span, I'm willing to bet that this one is still in high school. He is so shortsighted that he doesn't even realize that skillpoints aren't the only reward for playing and yet he has the gall to speak of the potential of Dust. Keep your CoD arcade out of my Dust.
Severus Smith ZionTCD Legacy Rising 163	Posted - 2013.01.12 01:38:00 - [17] - Quote ChargersGirlLuvsDP wrote: This post is a perfect example of the typical FPS monkey's thought process. They speak in broad strokes, painting themselves as the only important demographic and that without them, your game is doomed to failure. At least he is honest about his attention span, I'm willing to bet that this one is still in high school. He is so shortsighted that he doesn't even realize that skillpoints aren't the only reward for playing and yet he has the gall to speak of the potential of Dust. Keep your CoD arcade out of my Dust. While I don't agree with the name calling I do agree with your intent. For those of you who keep saying "This is a FPS, it should be X way" you are wrong. DUST 514 is being universally praised for breaking the stale FPS cookie cutter model used by EA, Activision and others to pump out FPS games. - It will be different than other FPS games, most likely in some drastic ways - It will reward long term planning, not instant gratification - It will be slower paced - It will reward intelligence and punish stupidity - It will be a niche game - It will be epic So, if you cannot tolerate the idea of this game not adhering to the overused rules / structure of all the other FPS games out there then there's the door. You have plenty of pure FPS options; let me have my special snowflake SciFi FPS / MMO / RPG hybrid.
ChargersGirlLuvsDP Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 49	Posted - 2013.01.12 01:48:00 - [18] - Quote @Severus Smith I don't view it as name calling, I view it as calling a spade a spade. Your post is eloquently put. Everyone should give this man a like.
Dr Debo Galaxy GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 189	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:04:00 - [19] - Quote Ok everyone is mathing this up way to much. Just play the frigin game. if you like it stay if you don't move on. And don't give me an excuse of " I say this because I want this game to be great". No you want this game to be what you want it to be. Not what it is.
Firestorm Zulu Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2013.01.12 02:08:00 - [20] - Quote Skihids wrote: Wakko03 wrote: Give it about a week or two when vehicle only users get some SP into them, to bad you can't use anything but a default swarm launcher on this character, but it is not like you can just choose your second clone; whom you have set up to be anti vehicle from inside the Manus Peaks Ambush Match you find yourself in while facing 5 tanks. It's going to be a lot longer than two weeks before anyone can fit a decent HAV and your starter AV suit will handle the paper tanks quite easily. Those who do spec into AV will do so far faster than vehicle pilots can so they will have the advantage. Heavy users get free starter FG fitting and Assault users get a free SL fitting. You won't need anything more than that for some time, and by then you can buy an advanced version of either of them depending on your skills at the time and do just fine. I put all my rockets into a single 'starter' tank today from my "Anti Vehicle Starter Fit" and didnt even drop his shields.

Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2013.01.12 15:43:00 - [21] - Quote William HBonney wrote: Hmmmm, that is all well and good for your slow paced sci fi space point and click...but this here is an fps sir. FPS are quick paced by nature and have relatively quick progression That may be the case, but there is no official rule set by any industry requiring games of a certain genre to be designed a certain way. The standard you see now is only the result of different companies like 343 Industries, Infinity Ward, Epic Games, 2K Games, etc. trying to copy each other off because it just made them the most money. Dust 514 is not obligated in any way, shape, or form to conform to such standards. Players have, and still do, constantly complain that Eve Online is too harsh and that high-sec should grant 100% immunity from gankers, thieves, scammers, etc. In other words, turning Eve Online into just another game where the company holds your hand (frakking carebears). CCP is different in that they don't want to hold your hand. In fact, they want to push you off the bird's nest while you're still young and fresh out of the egg to see if you can fly after falling 100 feet. To quote CCP: "HTFU". Because of this mentality, Eve Online has succeeded in many ways. It's such a huge success that Guild Wars 2 even based its current economic model on that of Eve's economy because... it works. More and more MMO companies nowadays are hiring economic experts to gauge they internal economies to see how they are doing and CCP was among the first of such companies to do that. Some even tried to emulate the harsh culture of Eve to some extent. Eve Online even has its own player-elected council of stellar management that helps players dictate the development of the game. Dust will one day have a player-elected voice in the CSM (probably in two years) and will have it's own vibrant economy that interacts directly with Eve Online's economy thus expanding more on the ass-hattery and scheming harsh culture of New Eden. We also want Dust to make such an impact on both games that whatever you and I do right now from here on out will still effect players 10 years from now. Remember MoO? AAA? GSF? BoB? SoCo? CFC? They were determined already by the actions players made 10 years ago and still change based on what people did months ago. Imagine Dust 10 years from now when it follows that same concept. You try showing me a game that already does that and does it well and is thriving. The concept may be alien to many companies which explains why almost no one bothered with it, but that doesn't mean that no such game should ever be attempted. I think MAG tried to do that but failed due to the recent changes in how it's played now.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2013.01.12 15:47:00 - [22] - Quote I'm going to start getting hostile with guys that think that everything CCP does is great or that we should just accept it. This is a beta and bad ideas needs to be called out. Forget EVE...this is Dust. A solely passive sp system will not work in a fps shooter. This daily cap blows....period
ChargersGirlLuvsDP Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 49	Posted - 2013.01.12 16:00:00 - [23] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I'm going to start getting hostile with guys that think that everything CCP does is great or that we should just accept it. This is a beta and bad ideas needs to be called out. Forget EVE...this is Dust. A solely passive sp system will not work in a fps shooter. This daily cap blows....period Eve and Dust are both on TQ, to ignore one is to ignore both. HTFU or cry more crydubbs.


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