DUST Search - Laser Rifle DIscourse [Logic Bomb Edition]

Free Beers wrote:

The dark cloud wrote:

damage up close is crap compared to a militia assault rifle. In fact a militia assault rifle has a higher DPS then a laser rifle up close even if it build up heat and then it barely gets the same damage output as a SMG. At point blank range you might get 25% efficency rating on shields (armor is even worse) so you would do 5HP damage per hit with no heat up. With max heat up maybe you get a damage of 8-10HP on shields. Oh and the best counter against a laser rifle is a heavy type-1 with armor plates and aswell a laser rifle (type-2 has more shields and is with that easy to kill.) You could aswell get a sniper rifle and shot him from far away. Another option is to get up close and shot him with a AR or shotgun. If you see a well known laser rifle user he will allways keep distance and eventually camp a good overview spot. when he starts to get kills his position is extreme easy to spot due to the beam which is visible for the whole team. If you let a laser rifle guy go flawless with tons of kills its your fault in not reacting to the situation. Its not a ordinary AR guy, a Laser in a good position should allways be a number 1 priority to kill cause he can do a very good job of area denial.

the optimal range of a laser isn't so much the issue. Example a few builds back no one used the excuse that a minddrive smg was really bad at 50 meters because it was used and under 15 meters. Same can be said for Lasers. I never bother with laser close up I switch to smg. Saying its bad up close has no bearing on how it performs in its optimal which is the issue being discussed. I used a proto laser quite at bit myself and its easily broken in context with other guns. That said I am well aware that the informal AR nerf (temp iron sights only does play a part in the strong feelings against lasers)

What it comes down to is a combination of the items below.

1) As with snipers long range weapons such as Lasers benefit from the user always being able to fit damage mods without a real trade off. Example AR players have to weight the risk/reward of damage vs tank. the stacking mod issue doesn't play that big of role really.

2) Accuracy of a laser when you swipe it across someone is 100% where as other guns can't offer you that type of ability. I hardly every aim for head but will still catch it a bunch. Watching high level suits lose shields instantly then the merc die just as fast when i make my second swipe back across him is telling. I'm not some super skilled fps guy either but using a laser i have much higher kdr then with any other weapon.

3) The only player skill factor is the preheat needed. Once you get that down its faily simple to preheat and swipe across players with high alpha damage. The alpha damage is my only real concern because ccp had reduced ehp of suits and scaled down damage of weapons consistantly to make dust about gun fights not he who shoots first.

Now i am not calling for a nerf of lasers but I think with the combination of 3 things i listed above they are a bit broken ths build. Add to that having highly skilled players using them they will get a bad rap anyways.

So many bad players in dust just want everything that kills them nerfed. I would prefer ccp to look as the issue objectiving in it parts and assess it as part of the bigger picutre.


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Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.29 21:43:00 - [1] - Quote This thread is going to address the LR complaints. So please, if you have a rebuttel (and im not a bias *****, i believe maybe some can shed light on the otherside), make sure it is a rebuttel and NOT a broken record of arguments ive already debunked. If you want to argue with my logic, that is one thing, if you are going to repeat in some variation the quotes i am arguing, with out addressing my counter argument, then you are an insignificant critical thinker, and tbh, probably shouldn't have a right to vote in your country. Logic people, logic, thats the currency of this topic. OH MY GOD, ITS A LASER RIFLE! "It only takes 5 seconds on anybody and it kills you!" There are very few weapons that would not kill you in optimal if placed on you accurately for a full 5 seconds, LRs also build up heat damage. "Well, I've been killed in two seconds!" First, if your a scout, shut your mouth and get out of my topic. Otherwise, you were in optimal range, probably shield heavy (LRs deal shield bonus dmg), and the LR was most likely already heating up, the longer it runs (while draining ammo) the more dmg it deals. You also could of been in a weak suit, standard/militia are easy to make quick work of. "Well i'm a heavy! Explain that you condescending stain to my eyes"** You have some disadvantages, such as slowness, its easy to keep a LR's accuracy on something that cant zigzag/move out of the way, meaning it will take the full brunt. This being said, ive never seen a heavy go down in 2 seconds from an LR, not saying it doesnt happen, weaker suits maybe its possible with a Viziam, but ive never seen it. Since naturally heavies are armour heavy they have the most resistance, to some degree it does make up for thier slowness. Its no secret that higher-end heavy gear needs a buff, as well, so remember dont always look at the weapon killing you and think it's the weapon. I'd still say as far as LRs go vs Heavies, heavies do the job of tanking the longest in regards to LR, i wouldnt say its entirely broken. If you're in optimal range, that is your issue and you need to get out of it, sometimes you cant, be a little more aware next time. Next! "Its OP! The thing is unstoppable, simply put." Its called CQC, just because your not equipped to deal with every single scenario does not make a weapon OP. You shouldnt be able to have a fair chance against an LR at range (excluding snipers obviously who beat everyone in range), the point is your in optimal. KEEP IN MIND LRs DO NOT PERFORM AT ALL AT CLOSE RANGE. I would argue LRs have the hardest counter in the game, because you are simply **** (especially as a logi which has no sidearm, as i am) if someone comes in close. DO YOU WANT EVERY WEAPON TO HAVE THE SAME STATS, LET THERE BE 0 VARIATION OR CLOSE TO IT? (If you answered yes to this rhetorical question, you're one of the reasons this game might die. Feel happy, killer of my dreams, slaughterer of competitive play. If this is the overwhelming feeling, i guess im just a runner in a speed walker's world) And if you die from an LR 1v1 at close range its not the weapon, its because you are honestly not a good player (or are having a bad day) dont be butthurt, im stating a fact not an insult. We were all there once, but you're certainly not getting better by placing blame on other things.** Next! "Well good luck getting close when you get pegged down all the time from a distance, you have no hope against it." If you walked into a position where you are pinned down/in the open/in no way able to fall back to pull off a flank, then your playing the FPS wrong. Situational awareness is #1 in larger map FPS' and is essential in becoming a good player. Being in its optimal range will obviously get you killed quicker, keep this in mind when you see someone with an LR If you are not soloing and have corp mates/friends, organize a flank, your pinned down so his attention is on you, probably thirsty for a kill, get your buddies to find away around, or atleast alleviate pressure so you have a chance to fall back. Any LR player in corp of competent people will have players around him supporting him, so if that squad beats you, dont blame it on the LR, they have greater situational awareness and chemistry, case closed. Not the LR's fault. LR has a hard counter, you KNOW what you need to do, its about completing that goal and its far from impossible, especially if you're with buddies. Game is not meant to be for a bunch of pubstars and solo artists, its ultimately a team game and has been presented as such by CCP, so when people need to really think through what they are arguing and NOT BE EXPECTING TO HAVE EQUAL FOOTING 1v1 IN EVERY SCENARIO, because that is not the point of the game. Things can become OP, when there is never a hard counter to a weapon in combination with brute strength, that = OP (I.e. missile turrets of a couple builds ago), but do not start feeding CCP OP complaints because you are not equipped or are not as skilled as other players. This is addressed equally to some top notch players who think, for whatever reason, in any given situation they should be able to see the same raw strength/dmg they see usually when kiling people. Use you're head you egomaniacs, there are counters for things, if you are in their optimal and not doing the correct moves to counter, you won't live.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 00:54:00 - [2] - Quote MItt R0mney wrote: I think most people who feel that laser rifles are overpowered don't really understand the weapon mechanics behind it. It truly is a unique weapon the breaks away from the same old SMG/AR/Shotty/Sniper mold that is in every single game. This is why I was drawn to it. If you feel the laser rifle is overpowered. Try it and see for yourself. This is my feeling too, it is such a unique weapon with a style you really dont see in any kind of FPS. The hard-counter balances it very well and i think a lot of people dont have an appreciation for the thought process that went behind balancing the weapon. Most people just feel if they get outplayed/aren't suited for a particular situation that it must be an OP weapon, they really do have to understand the mechanics of the weapon.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 01:01:00 - [3] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: BUT the laser rifles are able to project their damage in inverse manner to AR's: while AR's are now getting inaccurate over range, laser stays accurate. This is the only relevant part of your post. The range at maximum for laser rifles makes them a healthy replacement for sniper rifles, which I don't think anyone really wants. They are not replacing snipers, snipers have enormous range, it's kind of outlandish to think LRs are a 'healthy replacement' for snipers. LR players are still required to be on the battlefield, still very susceptible to flanking and tactics, a sniper can be up in the mountains with little fear of anything but other snipers, a person with an OB and a grudge, or someone rattled enough to waste his time ttrying to flank a sniper (which often, a sniper will detect before it happens since they have the height advantage) You took a soundbyte of what he said and completely ignored LRs have a heavy counter of CQC as they are essentially useless while still being amongst the fray. Flanking is one of the oldest and most common tactics in warfare, flanking is your friend, head on attacks are not the answer. A solo LRman will not be able to prevent being slaughtered against someone who makes an effort to flank, one in a squad can amongst pubsters, against another squad of organized players its best tactics win. LR being out of the norm does not make it OP
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:31:00 - [4] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. And still time elapses between spotting, so LR can heat up, and nabbing the kill. Giving people an ability to spot you. Some people will heat up before they hit a target to stay clandestine, and thats a viable strategy, but fact is it doesnt deal automatic damage like an AR
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:47:00 - [5] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. This being said i call BS on the 'first half a clip' part, maybe 1 kill first half, 3 kills second half , because second half is usually the well heated end of it. This is significant because it means there is still time before you spot the prey and actually nab the kill a proto AR can't kill any decent heavy in one clip. I can't 6 piece anything with a AR, so yeah. Edited my post a a bit, but i can still reply to this as it doesnt pertain to edit. Yeah an LR can kill a decent heavy in one clip, if a heavy stays in the open to be hit and at a distance. But that's where specialization and team tactics some into play. Which then draws a question as to how 'decent' they are to be in the open. In similiar sense, so can a proto AR if a heavy made himself easy prey like that. With an AR you also get a lot of mobility, so that makes up for it, where as an LR user you dont have that mobility
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 04:09:00 - [6] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: Lasers are not OP. Not at all, I can kill 2 people with the first half of the clip, then kill 4 more with the rest of the clip because of over heat damage. I can pretty much do that barely letting go of the trigger too. Then I have my trust SMG next to me to kill the close up enemies. Yeah not OP at all. Sarcasm Tbh a good player can do the same with a proto AR with similiar ratio in ammo, so dont see the argument unless you want to elaborate. You cant do this in any scenario in any case, but when people cluster and arent in top notch gear, sure it can work out that way, but thats thier issue and being at range, its also not a common occurance Where as a proto AR can kill 4 in closer range with exausting a similiar amount of ammo when thinking on a ratio standpoint. This being said i call BS on the 'first half a clip' part, maybe 1 kill first half, 3 kills second half , because second half is usually the well heated end of it. This is significant because it means there is still time before you spot the prey and actually nab the kill a proto AR can't kill any decent heavy in one clip. I can't 6 piece anything with a AR, so yeah. Edited my post a a bit, but i can still reply to this as it doesnt pertain to edit. Yeah an LR can kill a decent heavy in one clip, if a heavy stays in the open to be hit and at a distance. But that's where specialization and team tactics some into play. Which then draws a question as to how 'decent' they are to be in the open. In similiar sense, so can a proto AR if a heavy made himself easy prey like that. With an AR you also get a lot of mobility, so that makes up for it, where as an LR user you dont have that mobility Just STFU and think before you post! Laser have exactly the same mobility as an AR! Lasers don't make you slower do they? No!!! I run around with the laser, I just stay in optimal range of everybody. Sure they do, you're not as forced to ADS, with LR you always are, hence it lowers mobility (CQC = high mobility, and ARs are effective in CQC). Eitherway i dont see the issue, you stay optimal range with everybody, your using it well... why is it OP? If someone flanks close up then chances are they will kill you. I dont get why it has to be OP because people dont realize not to attack at range.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 04:22:00 - [7] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Damage build up when hot is quite honestly ridiculous. Lvl 1 laser fries 2 heavies in about 10-15 ammo. Last 10-15 in the clip mind. The REAL problem is that while almost all other weapons Proto damage was tuned down, lasers were left the same AND has mechanic fixes (heat up times ect). Swarmer is the same (do some quick Maths with a top swarm & damage mods for DPS). It's overpowered, because it wasn't rebalanced like the rest. Keep in mind a lot of people that can do it stack dual high end dmg mods in thier suits as it doesn't have a penalty currently, it may be causing a lot of the ridiculous numbers im seeing people bring up that i havn't experienced in my own play with the LR Not saying the LR needs no adjustment necessarily, i do state in the original post that I'm open to the otherside, however i do disagree with the idea that it's OP or significantly broken. Before anything happens with LR though that is one thing i'd like to see fixed.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 04:31:00 - [8] - Quote Omnipotens Zitro wrote: [quote=Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous][quote=Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous] The Imperfects have already have shown that lasers are OP. I can kill anybody with the damn toxin. We have went on the HK server and camped the South part of the map with all lasers. Guess what happen? Not one of us died and we combined to have 60+ kills. Yeah that CQC combat where laser suck, didn't even happen because nobody could reach my un-effective range because the lasers melted them in 2 seconds. The only way a laser dies is if he doesn't see the enemy coming. I can hold one corner of the map all by my self with the laser. Hey anybody can hold the corner of the map and have a great AOE with the laser all by themselves. Okay... so, let me get this straight, you stayed in a corner of a map with lasers and got kills. So you stat padded? Are you going to call snipers OP if a group of snipers went up in hills and just camped an entire game, feeding eachother nanohives and picking off people? At the end of the day, you may of gotten that but i question how effective you'd be against an organized squad or team with that tactic, chances are you'd have to move around because points are being taken and you'd end up losing the game. Weapon isnt OP, you're just pubstarring.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.12.30 05:38:00 - [9] - Quote Gunner Visari wrote: Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote: Omnipotens Zitro wrote: [quote=Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous][quote=Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous] The Imperfects have already have shown that lasers are OP. I can kill anybody with the damn toxin. We have went on the HK server and camped the South part of the map with all lasers. Guess what happen? Not one of us died and we combined to have 60+ kills. Yeah that CQC combat where laser suck, didn't even happen because nobody could reach my un-effective range because the lasers melted them in 2 seconds. The only way a laser dies is if he doesn't see the enemy coming. I can hold one corner of the map all by my self with the laser. Hey anybody can hold the corner of the map and have a great AOE with the laser all by themselves. Okay... so, let me get this straight, you stayed in a corner of a map with lasers and got kills. So you stat padded? Are you going to call snipers OP if a group of snipers went up in hills and just camped an entire game, feeding eachother nanohives and picking off people? At the end of the day, you may of gotten that but i question how effective you'd be against an organized squad or team with that tactic, chances are you'd have to move around because points are being taken and you'd end up losing the game. Weapon isnt OP, you're just pubstarring. Well unlike lasers, snipers don't fire a continuos beam of sunshine that can damage me, i can make a sniper miss and dodge their fire while firing back, You cant not in any way shape or form make a LR miss their target all you can do is take cover from it. Which half the time doesnt work because it seems laser at time cut right through the obstacles and bend ever so slightly around objects, it doesnt do a good job of blocking the beam like it should that is nonsense. True, but unlike snipers you are put in amongst other foot soldiers, yeah you keep range as someone who has an LR but you are never unreachable UNLESS you in a nook/perch where you can have a good line of site and pick people off. But by that same logic, a shotty in a hallway is OP because he is forcing himself to deal with CQC. Shotty is not OP in a hallway, that is the environment what it is meant to deal most damage in. While someone may be able to get kills these ways, the question on (outside of an ambush game) whether they are going to win the game or not still remains, and probably not if the LR person is just keep to a particular spot on the map to stat pad. LRs may seem OP in pubs but thats because people in pubs are usually disorganized messes, in an clan match LRs are no more or less OP then an AR or a Shotty. Where ARs are general multirole weapons, Shotties have thier speciality in CQC and LRs have thier specialty in range, but not near to the same degree as a sniper, its meant to be a more active range weapon. Edit: Obviously obstacle part you are talking about does not pertain to weapon itself and is a map glitch, or maybe you had not covered yourself as well as you had thought. Edit 2: You can make an LR miss its target technically but agreed it is harder. But tbh, it is not hard to dodge and tank rays enough to get to cover, UNLESS: 1) it is already pre-heated. In which case the player has a relatively smaller margin of time (and had already spent time heating it up) in order to peg you. There was a charge occurring that could also give away his position. 2) You were caught out in the open, which is on the player. LRs also give away position to anyone in the vicinity (beam), which helps bring attention to the attack you are receiving, something that would not occur with other weapons. Sure they may get you down, but they have to be on thier toes to maintain distance with other players closing in on them. Edit 3: A lot of this comes down to squad tactics, the weapon itself i dont see as OP, it fulfills its particular niche and lacks considerably outside of that niche
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2013.01.01 20:38:00 - [10] - Quote Free Beers wrote: The dark cloud wrote: damage up close is crap compared to a militia assault rifle. In fact a militia assault rifle has a higher DPS then a laser rifle up close even if it build up heat and then it barely gets the same damage output as a SMG. At point blank range you might get 25% efficency rating on shields (armor is even worse) so you would do 5HP damage per hit with no heat up. With max heat up maybe you get a damage of 8-10HP on shields. Oh and the best counter against a laser rifle is a heavy type-1 with armor plates and aswell a laser rifle (type-2 has more shields and is with that easy to kill.) You could aswell get a sniper rifle and shot him from far away. Another option is to get up close and shot him with a AR or shotgun. If you see a well known laser rifle user he will allways keep distance and eventually camp a good overview spot. when he starts to get kills his position is extreme easy to spot due to the beam which is visible for the whole team. If you let a laser rifle guy go flawless with tons of kills its your fault in not reacting to the situation. Its not a ordinary AR guy, a Laser in a good position should allways be a number 1 priority to kill cause he can do a very good job of area denial. the optimal range of a laser isn't so much the issue. Example a few builds back no one used the excuse that a minddrive smg was really bad at 50 meters because it was used and under 15 meters. Same can be said for Lasers. I never bother with laser close up I switch to smg. Saying its bad up close has no bearing on how it performs in its optimal which is the issue being discussed. I used a proto laser quite at bit myself and its easily broken in context with other guns. That said I am well aware that the informal AR nerf (temp iron sights only does play a part in the strong feelings against lasers) What it comes down to is a combination of the items below. 1) As with snipers long range weapons such as Lasers benefit from the user always being able to fit damage mods without a real trade off. Example AR players have to weight the risk/reward of damage vs tank. the stacking mod issue doesn't play that big of role really. 2) Accuracy of a laser when you swipe it across someone is 100% where as other guns can't offer you that type of ability. I hardly every aim for head but will still catch it a bunch. Watching high level suits lose shields instantly then the merc die just as fast when i make my second swipe back across him is telling. I'm not some super skilled fps guy either but using a laser i have much higher kdr then with any other weapon. 3) The only player skill factor is the preheat needed. Once you get that down its faily simple to preheat and swipe across players with high alpha damage. The alpha damage is my only real concern because ccp had reduced ehp of suits and scaled down damage of weapons consistantly to make dust about gun fights not he who shoots first. Now i am not calling for a nerf of lasers but I think with the combination of 3 things i listed above they are a bit broken ths build. Add to that having highly skilled players using them they will get a bad rap anyways. So many bad players in dust just want everything that kills them nerfed. I would prefer ccp to look as the issue objectiving in it parts and assess it as part of the bigger picutre. +1 for rationality I personally still dont see standard and elm as OP, viziam the alpha damage can be seen as a bit much. it would be easier to make this decision with 1) Dmg Mods fixed (i saw your argument, but still it does at least cancel a factor out) and 2) if i knew the gear of the people i killed. Assuming damage mods aren't as big of a factor, and gear factor is relatively null, then i see alpha damage of viziam needing to go down. Now mechanics of the LR itself, if they made it so it heated up on the person, making the buildup accuracy dependant, they would have to make sure the buildup/multiplier doesnt do a hard reset whenever the LR strays off the person, its way too easy to zigzag out of an LRs beam (atm not as significant factor as buildup occurs within weapon). I would not be entirely against that tbh, but I would not want CCP to rush it as LRs are genuinely one of the more unique weapons of the game. If they can get the mechanic right then that change increases the skill factor of the weapon. I would not want to see a significant DPS decrease yet, that can always happen after, add in more skill factor by the mechanic change first if they are going to do that, can always easily tweak dmg #s later. If they do tweak, maybe viziam and slightly.