DUST Search - Dear Dust Bunnies

BMSTUBBYx wrote:

While I support your effort and agree with 90% of your above statement I feel as though it is an up hill battle.

DUST is and will always be a FPS, sure it has some MMO thrown into the mix. But in the end it is a FPS.

"We want to shoot bad guys and we want to do it now."

I do not want to mine for crap, to make crap, so I can build crap, and maybe sell crap, to shoot crap.

I want to skill into a gun and go shoot bad guys, blow crap up, and take over planets by shooting bad guys and blowing crap up.

If I wanted to play EVE I would go and get a PC that would allow me to play EVE.

Sure I get it, what us Dusters do "will have an impact on the economy of Eve Online." Yeah, yeah CCP has to get it right so EVE players don't get all butt hurt and QQ because us Dusters are lose cannons.
Yeah, I get it.

"BUT" here is the thing.

CCP has given us Dusters a taste of what could and will be and we want more now, not a year from now.

CCP needs to implement some very key things in order to keep the natives calm.

Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap.

We need player count, full clan support, and for the love of god we need more than 4 man squads now.

Come on CCP open this thing up and let lose the Dusters and we will show you what we can do and what you will need to work on before you let us Duster lose into the fragile EVE universe.

It is time CCP, it is time.

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Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.26 23:41:00 - [1] - Quote Before I continue I just want to state that in no way is this thread meant to be some kind of fanboy post supporting CCP as I have jumped on CCP's case on certain issues in the past (most of which were later resolved). Therefore I can be critical of CCP when the time is appropriate. Anyways, back to the point of this thread. As many of you would know CCP had been (or is currently) withholding a lot of features that were promised in the past and are only slowly letting them loose for us to test. For example: It took some time for CCP to give us profile dampeners, repair tools, orbital bombardments, corporations, squad management, and other things we currently take for granted at this point. Then there are the fighter jets, MTACs, selling salvage, more open market, rogue drones, etc. that have yet to be released at the moment. Some of which probably won't be available until AFTER full release as a later free expansion. Knowing CCP's history and personally experiencing their history in many ways since 2007, it seems that many of us here are forgetting why CCP is taking so long on many things. We have to remember CCP's design philosophy for New Eden. Let's take a look at Eve Online since that is the game in which Dust 514 is based on. Unlike other MMOs out there, according to Forbes, Eve Online has a very unique economy that operates exactly like a real world economy from a small microeconomic scale to a full blown macroeconomic scale. There are players in that game that are real world economists, real world corporate auditors, even real world diplomats as noted by a famous player known as Sean 'Vile Rat' Smith (may he rest in peace). Here is how the economy general works in Eve Online (something CCP intends to emulate for Dust in the future): Player A mines asteroid belts in space and refines those ores into minerals. Player A either sells those minerals for profit or saves them for later use in production. Player A decides to sell those minerals instead because he needs ISK now and can't wait. Player B buys the minerals from the market sell orders that Player A posted and uses them to produce a ship or module. Player B then sells those ships/modules to Player C after posting a sell order. Player C uses those ships/modules for either PVP or PVE and loses them in the process. Player C buys more ships/modules from sell order posted by Players D-Z. Player D goes around different regions buying cheap ships/minerals/modules (aka commodities) so that he can haul them to other regions where they sell for much higher and makes a profit off of the margins. Players like Player D generally makes billions of ISK in a single months without firing a single shot. Player E catches Player D hauling precious cargo and attacks his ship unprovoked, loots the cargo and salvages the wreck. The PHAT LEWT is then sold on the market for people like Player B and C to use. Player F works the PLEX market to his advantage as a market trader just like how Player D works the market for ship/minerals/modules to his advantage. Player G attempts to corner the market for Hulk production by attacking and controlling the technetium moons in null-sec so that the market prices for Hulks sky rocket in his favor in high-sec while he pays large rewards to gankers to constantly destroy high-sec hulk miners. Player G looks to Players A and B for production of ships needed for such an attempt and looks to negotiate with Player D to help restrict flow of certain commodities. I could go on, but I am sure to run into my post's character limit pretty soon before my bullet point list is over. It is that complex. I'm not kidding here. The complexity of the economy didn't emerge like this on the first day of release. Eve Online became fully released in 2003, but the PLEX market didn't exist until 2009. Tech 2 ships and modules didn't come out until way after 2003. Wormholes and Tech 3 didn't emerge until almost two years ago. The economy kept expanding and expanding during the course of nine years. It suffered many things and still managed to endure: 2011 Jita Riots 2012 Burn Jita Gallente Ice Interdiction Hulkageddon (five straight years worth of high-sec tears). As you can see, if Dust 514 is to be fully implemented, it will have to be fully finished in parts. In CCP's case, these parts are called "free expansions". This is because everything you do, every suit, every vehicle, every weapon, every module, and every action will have an impact on the economy of Eve Online. If CCP is not careful with this, if a bug or exploit is discovered that would potentially break both games, then those nine years of blood, sweat and tears will have been undone in a very short time. I don't want to see that happen to either of the games. That said, I would prefer CCP to take their time to get things right. I don't give a damn if it will take another 9 years to get this right. For those of you who stuck around since replication, you know that every time a feature is added, bugs emerge inevitably which is why CCP has to take things slow. And with a game like Dust that will soon be equally complex and confusing as Eve Online, there is very little margin for error. This is why there will be free expansions after full release because Dust will be built over the years rather than over the months. Just like Eve Online, Dust will be on permanent beta even after full release. So for those of you who are just too impatient and want "this" and "that" now, I suggest you stop right now, calm down, and look at what's at stake here.
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.12.27 00:04:00 - [2] - Quote Great stuff and you hit the nail on the head.
Jeremiah ambromot Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2012.12.27 03:29:00 - [3] - Quote I remember a bug in eve that if you had a pos and processed minerals and stopped it while processing you would get both the original material and processed material.
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.12.27 03:45:00 - [4] - Quote Jeremiah ambromot wrote: I remember a bug in eve that if you had a pos and processed minerals and stopped it while processing you would get both the original material and processed material. They fixed that quite awhile back. Some people made a ton of isk though.
J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.12.27 04:00:00 - [5] - Quote I see where you are going with this and yes I agree for the most part. We can wait for PVE and MTACs and stuff. However, it is a necessity for MCC command, low sec and null sec to be fully implemented before release, no exceptions.
Moochie Cricket SyNergy Gaming 143	Posted - 2012.12.27 06:15:00 - [6] - Quote +1
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.27 06:48:00 - [7] - Quote Octavian Vetiver wrote: Jeremiah ambromot wrote: I remember a bug in eve that if you had a pos and processed minerals and stopped it while processing you would get both the original material and processed material. They fixed that quite awhile back. Some people made a ton of isk though. It all ended with CCP starting a campaign known as Unholy Rage in which they sent Concord out to destroy their pos towers. And yes people did make a **** ton of ISK.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.27 06:51:00 - [8] - Quote I also forgot to mention in my OP that planetary interaction, a profession that is needed for the production of pos towers, didn't emerge until about 2-3 years ago when the great land rush began once the DED lifted the restrictions governing interactions between capsuleers and planets.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.12.27 15:47:00 - [9] - Quote While I support your effort and agree with 90% of your above statement I feel as though it is an up hill battle. DUST is and will always be a FPS, sure it has some MMO thrown into the mix. But in the end it is a FPS. "We want to shoot bad guys and we want to do it now." I do not want to mine for crap, to make crap, so I can build crap, and maybe sell crap, to shoot crap. I want to skill into a gun and go shoot bad guys, blow crap up, and take over planets by shooting bad guys and blowing crap up. If I wanted to play EVE I would go and get a PC that would allow me to play EVE. Sure I get it, what us Dusters do "will have an impact on the economy of Eve Online." Yeah, yeah CCP has to get it right so EVE players don't get all butt hurt and QQ because us Dusters are lose cannons. Yeah, I get it. "BUT" here is the thing. CCP has given us Dusters a taste of what could and will be and we want more now, not a year from now. CCP needs to implement some very key things in order to keep the natives calm. Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap. We need player count, full clan support, and for the love of god we need more than 4 man squads now. Come on CCP open this thing up and let lose the Dusters and we will show you what we can do and what you will need to work on before you let us Duster lose into the fragile EVE universe. It is time CCP, it is time.
Luke Vetri D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 48	Posted - 2012.12.27 16:18:00 - [10] - Quote I agree with OP as well as the first half of what BMSTUBBYx says, BUT, and I know I'll get flamed for saying this... It's BETA you are in a privileged position to be getting an early look at the game Yes, constructive feedback is wanted, yes passionate debates about what is broken is also great, but demanding what and when it is released is not our place. If you want all the bells and whistles then come back after release, if you want bells, whistles and fireworks come back in say 2 years, otherwise STFU and be constructive rather than a spoilt brat.

NAV HIV The Generals 151	Posted - 2012.12.27 16:21:00 - [11] - Quote BMSTUBBYx wrote: While I support your effort and agree with 90% of your above statement I feel as though it is an up hill battle. DUST is and will always be a FPS, sure it has some MMO thrown into the mix. But in the end it is a FPS. "We want to shoot bad guys and we want to do it now." I do not want to mine for crap, to make crap, so I can build crap, and maybe sell crap, to shoot crap. I want to skill into a gun and go shoot bad guys, blow crap up, and take over planets by shooting bad guys and blowing crap up. If I wanted to play EVE I would go and get a PC that would allow me to play EVE. Sure I get it, what us Dusters do "will have an impact on the economy of Eve Online." Yeah, yeah CCP has to get it right so EVE players don't get all butt hurt and QQ because us Dusters are lose cannons. Yeah, I get it. "BUT" here is the thing. CCP has given us Dusters a taste of what could and will be and we want more now, not a year from now. CCP needs to implement some very key things in order to keep the natives calm. Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap. We need player count, full clan support, and for the love of god we need more than 4 man squads now. Come on CCP open this thing up and let lose the Dusters and we will show you what we can do and what you will need to work on before you let us Duster lose into the fragile EVE universe. It is time CCP, it is time. + 1 KILL EM ALL
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 432	Posted - 2012.12.27 17:48:00 - [12] - Quote excellent post, should be stickied. i been trying to explain the exact same thing to ppl but wasn't able to word it this well. integrating the economy to EVE is like rocket surgery, one crossed wire and the whole thing goes boom, it will have to be done in stages. because the economy is the backbone and driving force of eve, if it becomes too imbalanced the whole game collapses.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.12.27 18:00:00 - [13] - Quote Luke Vetri wrote: I agree with OP as well as the first half of what BMSTUBBYx says, BUT, and I know I'll get flamed for saying this... It's BETA you are in a privileged position to be getting an early look at the game Yes, constructive feedback is wanted, yes passionate debates about what is broken is also great, but demanding what and when it is released is not our place. If you want all the bells and whistles then come back after release, if you want bells, whistles and fireworks come back in say 2 years, otherwise STFU and be constructive rather than a spoilt brat. Okay I will take the troll bait. I respect the fact that maybe you missed my point because I was not clear enough. I stated that I do not need all the bells and whistles yet, or as I put it, "Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap." This thread is in General Discussions not the feedback threads CCP has set up. I have left "constructive feedback" in those threads and will continue to do so thank you very much. As for the rest of your blah, blah, troll, blah, blah, troll, post sorry TL:DR.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.27 22:55:00 - [14] - Quote @BMSTUBBY The "mining" example that I gave was only meant to be an example of the major complexities of Eve Online. Another example that would probably best serve my point is the incident that happened not too long ago during the Codex build of Dust 514 when CCP finally allowed Eve capsuleers to communicate with us directly. During that time it was discovered that Eve capsuleers were able to transfer billions of ISK to Dust corps and mercs directly via their Sisi wallets. But it was quickly discovered that this was not intended and that CCP accidentally switched the feature on by mistake in the process. They quickly shut it off but not before the incident made a big impact on how the Testers Tournament turned out with Dust corps now wielding wallets that were billions of ISK fatter in one day. Players even went as far as stocking up on hundreds of units of everything that could use in the meantime before CCP emptied their wallets. This is just one of many things that can have me concerned with Dust and Eve in regards to the economy. I understand you want to have some things now that don't seem to have a negative impact on the economy such expanding on squad sizes, better corp management, etc. Those I can see coming pretty soon. But you have to be patient even for that. Remember that for every feature you put into a game you will get a few bugs or exploits that need to be resolved. Even to this day, Eve-side capsuleers still report problems with corp management though not as much now as compared to months past. CCP did mention that Chromosome is mostly designed to resolve issues that cropped up during Codex or were neglected since Replication and that content took backseat for this build. We already knew this nearly a month before Chromosome came out. Now, I don't mind seeing fighter jets, cloaking modules, skyfire batteries, etc. coming out now, but honestly I felt that gameplay imbalance and bugs needed more attention than all those new features. Nothing can break a game more than imbalance and bugs.
Luke Vetri D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 48	Posted - 2012.12.28 06:27:00 - [15] - Quote BMSTUBBYx wrote: Okay I will take the troll bait. I respect the fact that maybe you missed my point because I was not clear enough. I stated that I do not need all the bells and whistles yet, or as I put it, "Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap." This thread is in General Discussions not the feedback threads CCP has set up. I have left "constructive feedback" in those threads and will continue to do so thank you very much. As for the rest of your blah, blah, troll, blah, blah, troll, post sorry TL:DR. I'm not sure why you feel quite so personally offended, yes I mentioned your name (to agree with you), but alas you are not the center of my world, my comment was directed at everyone who is demanding all the content now. Simply - The more content there is the more potential for bugs, and the more code there is to find them in.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.28 13:54:00 - [16] - Quote There is another example I want to point out everyone here. Remember the first few weeks of the codex build? Yeah, it wasn't so fun when players discovered how to start boosting to the point of launching a precision strike every frakking minute. And i'm not exaggerating here. Ask anyone else here who was there. Imagine if that ever came out during full release. The Eve players would have gone to town tearing this game up even if they already are tossing the dead horse into the shredder.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.12.28 16:18:00 - [17] - Quote Luke Vetri wrote: BMSTUBBYx wrote: Okay I will take the troll bait. I respect the fact that maybe you missed my point because I was not clear enough. I stated that I do not need all the bells and whistles yet, or as I put it, "Again us Dusters don't need the whole mine for crap, to build crap, stuff that will effect EVE's crap piece right now, we can wait a year for that crap." This thread is in General Discussions not the feedback threads CCP has set up. I have left "constructive feedback" in those threads and will continue to do so thank you very much. As for the rest of your blah, blah, troll, blah, blah, troll, post sorry TL:DR. I'm not sure why you feel quite so personally offended, yes I mentioned your name (to agree with you), but alas you are not the center of my world, my comment was directed at everyone who is demanding all the content now. Simply - The more content there is the more potential for bugs, and the more code there is to find them in. Advice for the future. Do not use a persons name in a "STFU" post and expect that person to not take offense to it. Or before posting STFU make it very clear that your STFU is meant for other persons and not the person that you put in your post. Just some advice you can either take it or leave it. Now I do agree that with the addition of more content comes the chance for more bugs, exploits, glitches so on and so forth. However isn't running a 2 year beta meant for us to find that crap? Who cares if we find that crap in a beta at least it was not found after release. Either way I do understand what is trying to be said here and I support it.
BigussDikkuss Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2012.12.28 16:35:00 - [18] - Quote I don't see the point of this topic. Call it CCP Fanboyism or not, call it a "Reassurance Piece" or don't, at the end of the day (which was almost as long as it took be to read through that first post) this is just a diatribe. I realize this is "General Discussion", but please, let's keep the "What Will Come One Day" banter to a minimum and discuss what we have in our hands now. And how that can be improved. I for one am much more concerned with the troubling frame rate issues than I am with how the Dust Economy will look in 2017 or when I'm going to be able to fly a fighter jet in this game.


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