DUST Search - Tactical ar and modded controllers

DarkShadowFox wrote:

Free Beers wrote:

Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out.

Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though.

Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings.

hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers.

You do bring up a good point. Seeing he isn't an imperfect though no one will really care. Its always about the broken gun/modded controller never about the damage per shot/ headshot bonus/ accuracy of shot or player skill invovled.

what if we lower the damage, it does seem silly to have a single shot assault rifle. We dont need the biggest weapon in the game to have a multirole, what if we just had ONE GUN that did different levels of damage with a selector switch, between burst, semi and full. LIKE REAL GUNS HAVE

OH WAIT

were too far in the future that all the old world stuff has been lost and people dont see making one gun with a selector switch! We have to make multiple ones for "variety", nice filler CCP.

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Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.12 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote When I saw the higher rate of fire and damage of semi-auto tac-ar I thought it was abuse-able by a modded controller. Later there was a glitch that made them all autofire, people complained. Recently many have complained about everybody uing modded controllers, I even saw somebody say a button can't be pushed more then 5 times a second(5Hz). Nerfing rate of fire to breach level was suggested. I knew I could push the button much faster then 5Hz, much faster then breach in fact. So, Sunday night I did a comparison. That night I bought a snakebyte junk controller with autofire at 15Hz. That is 900 rounds per minute, faster then the tac can fire. I tried to compare kdr in ambush with semi-auto and with modded controller, but it proved impossible since the sticks are so low quality on that thing I couldn't hit anything with it, no fine control at all. So, I tried using standard controller, but hitting autofire with elbow. This didn't work well. So, I fired full mags into a wall with semi-auto and autofire, they looked the same. So I tried counting to time the mag running dry. It seemed to fire at same speed either way, so I was apparently maxing out the rate of fire on semi-auto. The sharpshooter for the move has a auto and burst setting, so at least with the move it is a supported function. I don't see the point since it is can be done without the aid, and rate of fire can be varied with semi-auto. Slow rate of fire using tracers to line up shot, then speed up fire rate when on target. So, I conclude any issues with tactical rifle are inherent in the weapon, the existence of modded controllers has no effect on it's balance. Ideas for balancing Three options, not suggesting all together. 1)Maybe fix it by having it overheat? Damage and rate of fire could stay the same. The heat would build per shot, and cool enough so at breach rate it will fire whole clip, but a faster rate will cause it to over heat. So, a skilled player could fire rapid semi-auto bursts with out over heating, but somebody spraying will overheat before a kill. 2) increase recoil if fired faster then breach, so a bust aiming at legs will climb to head. Full auto mods are button spam will shoot the sky. 3)keep range and make it a lower cyclic rate of fire, this would make it a longer range breach, still more useful then breach but a heavy nerf. To prevent modded controllers not sure if desirable, since sharpshooter has function and it isn't the problem anyway. 1)have it jam if fired to fast, a controller with adjustable rate of fire could get around this 2)have it jam if time between shots is identical, human finger will vary slightly. A custom controller may still bypass this. 3)have the max rate of fire decline with longer sustained fire, this would require custom controller to get around. Another oddity, why does it fire faster then standard? A semi-auto and automatic rifle have the same cyclic fire unless gas system is modified. Seems odd to me it fires faster. The version where it is a fire rate of fire with over heat makes sense to me. The full auto rate is limited to prevent overheat, and tac has this safety mechanism removed.
Otto Golaso ZionTCD Legacy Rising 18	Posted - 2012.12.12 22:46:00 - [2] - Quote These ideas sound pretty solid to me, and wtg on the actual testing, mate. +1 from me.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.12.12 22:52:00 - [3] - Quote +1 At least its not a QQ thread.............yet
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:07:00 - [4] - Quote I applaud you for testing. I would be interested if you can find any advantage with any of the other weapons with an auto fire. I think ccp and community would appreciate that. I honestly thought most of the QQ about modded TACs was bullshit but thought a max ROF could render the issue mute. Maybe CCP has as max ROF built in already and are just laughing at all the rage. Dear QQers CCP has trolled you. You sir, are not a scrub.
Earl Hardwood 5	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:09:00 - [5] - Quote any nerf you suggested will make this gun useless might just as well get rid of it as nerf it there is enough useless guns in game already were's my gold scrambler rifle
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:48:00 - [6] - Quote If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2048	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:49:00 - [7] - Quote Earl Hardwood wrote: where's my gold scrambler rifle I feel ya
Sandromin Hes Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 204	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:53:00 - [8] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: Another oddity, why does it fire faster then standard? A semi-auto and automatic rifle have the same cyclic fire unless gas system is modified. Seems odd to me it fires faster. The version where it is a fire rate of fire with over heat makes sense to me. The full auto rate is limited to prevent overheat, and tac has this safety mechanism removed. Lol at idea that they're using gas system.... it's 20000 years in the future. They use super heated plasma charges. If a normal person shot the gun, they'd spontaneously combust due to the fact that the gun's barrel is like 4000 degrees Celsius. So overheating is out of the way. It fires as fast as you can tap like our modern weapons; although you can't tap as fast as an assault rifle can, it's technically possible to do it. P.S. There are no safety mechanisms.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.12.12 23:55:00 - [9] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings. hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers.
Earl Hardwood 5	Posted - 2012.12.13 00:08:00 - [10] - Quote smaller clip there you go job done 20 shots or 15

Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.12.13 00:25:00 - [11] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings. hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers. You do bring up a good point. Seeing he isn't an imperfect though no one will really care. Its always about the broken gun/modded controller never about the damage per shot/ headshot bonus/ accuracy of shot or player skill invovled.
DarkShadowFox Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2012.12.13 02:20:00 - [12] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings. hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers. You do bring up a good point. Seeing he isn't an imperfect though no one will really care. Its always about the broken gun/modded controller never about the damage per shot/ headshot bonus/ accuracy of shot or player skill invovled. what if we lower the damage, it does seem silly to have a single shot assault rifle. We dont need the biggest weapon in the game to have a multirole, what if we just had ONE GUN that did different levels of damage with a selector switch, between burst, semi and full. LIKE REAL GUNS HAVE OH WAIT were too far in the future that all the old world stuff has been lost and people dont see making one gun with a selector switch! We have to make multiple ones for "variety", nice filler CCP.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.13 02:45:00 - [13] - Quote I call BS to all this. You admit to using modded controllers and I believe you are posting all this stuff just to make everyone feel at ease so you can continue to do so without repercussion. No matter what the TAC should have a ROF reduction because if people can fire at its max ROF without a modded controller accurately every single shot (again, BS), then there is no drawback to the weapon and it is broken and unbalanced.
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2012.12.13 03:10:00 - [14] - Quote Are the codewash TAC ARs still fully auto? I see them get used a far amount and often wonder, I suppose i should start using TAC ARs it seems to be the tool all the cool kids are using atm.
SATORI CORUSCANTi Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 253	Posted - 2012.12.13 03:33:00 - [15] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Are the codewash TAC ARs still fully auto? I see them get used a far amount and often wonder, I suppose i should start using TAC ARs it seems to be the tool all the cool kids are using atm. They're single shot
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1060	Posted - 2012.12.13 03:38:00 - [16] - Quote You dont need a modded controller. There are devices out there where you can program any controller to have rapid fire function. Just google cronus x. With that thing you can exploit the tac AR pretty simple. Just like those so called "skilled players" who insta kill you accross the range where not even a laser rifle will touch them.
Eflin Trollunge Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 10	Posted - 2012.12.13 06:08:00 - [17] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: I call BS to all this. You admit to using modded controllers and I believe you are posting all this stuff just to make everyone feel at ease so you can continue to do so without repercussion. No matter what the TAC should have a ROF reduction because if people can fire at its max ROF without a modded controller accurately every single shot (again, BS), then there is no drawback to the weapon and it is broken and unbalanced. I call logical fallacy, you are basically stating that because he got a cheap modded controller to test whether or not modded controllers give an advantage he is using a modded controller and there for biased, however without the modded controller there is no way he could test it to prove that modded controllers don't have an advantage. So basically by your logic there is no way anyone can disprove that modded controllers have an advantage because anyone who tests it is using a modded controller and thus a cheater. So even if a modded controller does not give an advantage it will always be treated as if it does because no one can test the theory to disprove it. You fail at science.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.12.13 06:23:00 - [18] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Are the codewash TAC ARs still fully auto? I see them get used a far amount and often wonder, I suppose i should start using TAC ARs it seems to be the tool all the cool kids are using atm. ppl use it alot cuz its p2w :P highest dmg gun in the game and its an AUR proto gun which uses adv lvl fitting requirements aka almost 50% decrease on CPU and PG of what the ISK variant cost which allows u to also fit other stuff on ur suit hence ppl ***** it which is why CCP needs to rethink fitting costs on these proto AUR weapons tbh
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.13 08:43:00 - [19] - Quote Recon by fire, this last line was my point. Quote: No matter what the TAC should have a ROF reduction because if people can fire at its max ROF without a modded controller accurately every single shot (again, BS), then there is no drawback to the weapon and it is broken and unbalanced. If the fire cap is reached by a fast finger or a modded controller the weapon is unbalanced. Although I like the idea of rewarding a good skill like a fast trigger, it is a little much reward. Any nerf should be small, we don't need a repeat of what happened to the breach. I'm not sure autofire can have repercussions, since the sharpshooter is a official sony controller with it. I was talking about all the tac rifles, the low cpu and pg of the codewish is a separate issue. I would like it fixed by raising the skill needed for code wish to be the same as isk proto tac-ar, then add a isk version with same fittings req. at one skill rank higher. The comment about the way it samples could be the case, unless it buffers the trigger pull. I'll check with mass driver or sniper, if I double tap the fire and it fires the second shot I'll know it buffers. It seemed to fire faster then the breach, so It was more then double. I'm aware of the lack of gas system in the ar, being linear accelerators like the rail guns. I was making a comparison to real life semi-auto only versions of automatic weapons, they have the same cyclic fire rate unless gas system was altered. I was giving a reasoning of why the suggested overheat could be explained. Say, if breach rate of fire is limited to prevent overheat, tac can fire faster but risks over heating like laser rifle as result, but heat won't build if fired slowly. On a side not some forms of rail gun have pressure in the barrel from the plasma formed behind projectile, so a railgun or plasma rifle could have a gas operated reload mechanism to load the next round. Temperatures in a closed tube don't rise as high as moving gasses in tube they are connected to. An exhaust pressure gauge on a turbo charged engine can be connected with a rubber hose rated to 150 degrees Celsius even though the gases it's measuring pressure of can be 950 degrees Celsius. So a tungsten tube gas system could handle 4000 Celsius pretty easy. Not that there is any indication dust ar use this type of system, what ever load system they use for full auto it would be the same cyclic for semi-auto as full unless something was changed. The plasma equivalent of modern ar's gas system. For people not being able to fire at that speed, google search semi-auto paint ball marker fire rates. If anything it is easier to push a button on controller then pull the trigger on a paintball marker Yet they can fire that fast.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.12.13 11:51:00 - [20] - Quote I used stop watch to time the rapid fire emptying all ammo into wall. Then did math to subtract out the reload time with my skills. It came out to almost exactly 7.5 shots per second. So, the cheap controller does send two many samples and fires at 1/2 stated rate. This works out to 450 rpm. The lack of buffer was confirmed by tying to double tap the trigger on mass driver, even with two trigger pulls one grenade fired. I tied to repeat with semi-auto, but 330 rapid semi-auto shots made finger hurt, and slow drastically. When trying to time a single clip I came up with 5.8seconds or 310.3 rpm, yet visually it looked faster then breach's 404rpm. I found online site that times mouse clicks and gives clicks per minute, it showed 440 on average. This is closer to what was observed, so 5.8seconds is probably from trying to start and stop a stop watch while firing semi-auto quickly. The tac fired at that speed is nasty enough, firing at the faster max speed by mod or skill is just silly. I just thought of way to prevent most rapid fire controllers, if the interval between the current shot and last matches the interval of last shot and the one before it, don't fire the gun. The finger will vary slightly, so an exactly matching gap between shots is very unlikely to happen. The odd time it did match with semi-auto would only drop a single shot, a modded controller would shoot two round bursts instead of full auto. A random variable could be added to controller turbo-fire, but would require some custom programming of micro-controller or complicated circuit to vary shot timing. If the cyclic rate of fire was lowered to 620 it would still give a roughly 20% damage bonus to fast triggered players (and the increased range and scope zoom) It currently gives about 52% more damage per second at max rate of fire. Firing the gun at speeds faster then that is broken with or without turbo-fire, it would out damage a hmg at current max. Tested rapid fire on smg, burst, and mass driver. Made smg shudder, like expected. The burst ar fired more bursts then if button is held, but easily done by pressing button like a semi-auto. The mass driver fired faster with the turbo spamming it, but no noticeable difference from hitting button rapidly. I think I tested everything I can with that controller. If a modded controller is of any use it would have to have a programmable fire rate, and if my suggestion to stop is used a slightly randomized programmable fire speed. It is also easier to aim with stock controller then the cheap knockoffs, and more damage is useless if it misses. Back to old six-axis controller. I use blindfire ar mainly anyway.

Kazeno Rannaa Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 145	Posted - 2012.12.13 14:29:00 - [21] - Quote DarkShadowFox wrote: Free Beers wrote: Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings. hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers. You do bring up a good point. Seeing he isn't an imperfect though no one will really care. Its always about the broken gun/modded controller never about the damage per shot/ headshot bonus/ accuracy of shot or player skill invovled. what if we lower the damage, it does seem silly to have a single shot assault rifle. We dont need the biggest weapon in the game to have a multirole, what if we just had ONE GUN that did different levels of damage with a selector switch, between burst, semi and full. LIKE REAL GUNS HAVE OH WAIT were too far in the future that all the old world stuff has been lost and people dont see making one gun with a selector switch! We have to make multiple ones for "variety", nice filler CCP. I would be more into having varied rate of fire for a single weapon and bringing in the racial variants.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.13 14:37:00 - [22] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If they add both spread AND recoil based on fire rate to Tac rifles so you get shots scattering semi-randomly if you're firing too fast, that should balance them out. Would have to be high enough level of scatter to discourage max firing speed though. Also, an auto-fire modded controller at 15hz when the gun only fires at 13hz will actually fire SLOWER than someone who can manually fire the weapon with semi-auto at 10hz. Basically, every second autofire activation on the modded controller will be triggered too early and fail to fire, causing an additional delay before the next shot. Effectively, the 15hz fire rate will be cut in half. If you have VARIABLE fire rate settings on a modded controller, you can set it just under the gun's actual fire rate, and it'll operate at max speed more consistently than is humanly possible, but you have to either have a controller modde to match the fire rate, or one with adjustable trigger speed settings. hmmm this guy has adept knowledge in modded controllers. Good luck finding evidence that I use one. I mostly run Shotguns, Laser Rifles and Missile HAVs. Not exactly ideal even if I had a modded controller. And while I don't use modded controllers, I've learned about them through having an extensive network of friends with a variety of attitudes towards gaming and competition.


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