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Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2012.12.10 15:40:00 - [1] - Quote Here is my take on the SMGs. This weapon is a pretty decent CQC weapon. When it comes to certain weapons, the SMG certain comes out on top. With the rest;- not so much. I have held my own against shotgunners and laser rifles pretty well. With shotgunners you keep your distance and with laser rifles you close in for the kill. When it comes to ARs and HMGs you pretty much get pwned. I can understand with HMGs because its supposed to be the utimate CQC weapon, but ARs and CQC? When you start of using the SMG, it basically has the same stats as a AR. Toxin SMG : 20 * 84 = 1680 Base AR : 30 * 60 = 1800 But as you go higher the damage widens. Six Kin: 24 * 84 = 2016 Duvolle : 36 * 60 = 2160 Add the damage modes and this percent increases a lot. So if 2 people at the same skill levels fight with the AR and SMG, the SMG with always loose. Its no good in CQC against and AR and no good with distance. This means that the SMGs do need some love. Here are my recommendations;- 1. Increase the SMG damage by 10% - 20% across the board. 10% would be good, 20% great! 2. Reduce the SMG spread. Even at 30 feet the SMG spread it too much. 3. Increase the SMG range by 20% My favourite SMG is M512. This is by far the best SMG when it comes to ROI. At 12000 ISK its a steal. The M209s and Ishukones are really good. But they are too expensive. Edit: Updated Stats
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.10 16:36:00 - [2] - Quote What is the damage per second though? You cant only look at damage per magazine, if you did that then the HMG is extremely OP. The SMG has a higher ROF and larger magazine so it should probably take out an AR at the proper range easily. For instance if you take two players and have them stand still and fire into the same point as each other, the SMG should win. But when you add in weapon dispersion and a moving target thats why the SMG is inferior. Your high ROF means that a second off target is like 10 or 20 rounds wasted and youre closer to having to reload. At that point the AR has nothing to worry about.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2012.12.10 17:12:00 - [3] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: What is the damage per second though? You cant only look at damage per magazine, if you did that then the HMG is extremely OP. The SMG has a higher ROF and larger magazine so it should probably take out an AR at the proper range easily. For instance if you take two players and have them stand still and fire into the same point as each other, the SMG should win. But when you add in weapon dispersion and a moving target thats why the SMG is inferior. Your high ROF means that a second off target is like 10 or 20 rounds wasted and youre closer to having to reload. At that point the AR has nothing to worry about. With the damage mods in place and the bonuses in place with skills books a gunfight is generally over within the first 5-10 bullets fired. Rate of fire doesnt matter at this point in time.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 285	Posted - 2012.12.10 18:03:00 - [4] - Quote I'm in favour of an smg buff, but don't forget it's a sidearm; it's not supposed to be able to compete with/as a main weapon. All it needs is a mild damage buff. The spread and range are fitting for an smg.
Musta Tornius BetaMax. 265	Posted - 2012.12.10 18:43:00 - [5] - Quote Sentient Archon wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: What is the damage per second though? You cant only look at damage per magazine, if you did that then the HMG is extremely OP. The SMG has a higher ROF and larger magazine so it should probably take out an AR at the proper range easily. For instance if you take two players and have them stand still and fire into the same point as each other, the SMG should win. But when you add in weapon dispersion and a moving target thats why the SMG is inferior. Your high ROF means that a second off target is like 10 or 20 rounds wasted and youre closer to having to reload. At that point the AR has nothing to worry about. With the damage mods in place and the bonuses in place with skills books a gunfight is generally over within the first 5-10 bullets fired. Rate of fire doesnt matter at this point in time. Surely you mean clip size doesn't matter if it is over in 5 - 10 shots. IF that's the case then ROF would indeed be the deciding factor.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2012.12.10 18:51:00 - [6] - Quote Musta Tornius wrote: Surely you mean clip size doesn't matter if it is over in 5 - 10 shots. IF that's the case then ROF would indeed be the deciding factor. Nope. Its ROF * Damage. Do the math. I dont have time to explain it.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.10 20:37:00 - [7] - Quote Sentient Archon wrote: Musta Tornius wrote: Surely you mean clip size doesn't matter if it is over in 5 - 10 shots. IF that's the case then ROF would indeed be the deciding factor. Nope. Its ROF * Damage. Do the math. I dont have time to explain it. In other words youre wrong and cant find a legitimate way to defend your argument? I agree the SMG could use a bit of a damage buff, and maybe nerf the muzzle flash so you can actually see any part of the screen. But outside of that its an SMG, what do you really want out of it? Its not a sub-HMG.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2012.12.10 20:40:00 - [8] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: In other words youre wrong and cant find a legitimate way to defend your argument? I agree the SMG could use a bit of a damage buff, and maybe nerf the muzzle flash so you can actually see any part of the screen. But outside of that its an SMG, what do you really want out of it? Its not a sub-HMG. Most ARs have a ROF or about 750 or more. SMGs are at 1000 or 1054. That means an SMG fires 1.33 times faster than an AR. SMG: 1.33 * 20 * 10 = 266 AR: 30 * 10 = 300 It increases over skills levels.
RECON BY FIRE BetaMax. 51	Posted - 2012.12.10 20:55:00 - [9] - Quote Sentient Archon wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: In other words youre wrong and cant find a legitimate way to defend your argument? I agree the SMG could use a bit of a damage buff, and maybe nerf the muzzle flash so you can actually see any part of the screen. But outside of that its an SMG, what do you really want out of it? Its not a sub-HMG. Most ARs have a ROF or about 750 or more. SMGs are at 1000 or 1054. That means an SMG fires 1.33 times faster than an AR. SMG: 1.33 * 20 * 10 = 266 AR: 30 * 10 = 300 It increases over skills levels. That seems pretty good to me for a sidearm. If they would adjust it to where the total damage in your example would be 280 it would probably be perfect. What is your objective here though? That within the same amount of time all weapons should deal the same amount of damage? By a certain definition that means "balanced", but in total definition that is not balanced. Why should an AR user be able to pump out that much damage and then switch to their SMG and continue to pump out the same amount of damage? If were gonna make it that way why not just make it to where you can carry two ARs or double the mag size on an AR? Same end result basically.
Sentient Archon Red Star. 690	Posted - 2012.12.10 21:15:00 - [10] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: What is your objective here though? That within the same amount of time all weapons should deal the same amount of damage? My objective out here is to find a middle ground between balance and power. Now if you look at the AR and SMG combination you can never really use a good AR with a good SMG without compromising HP. The SMg is supposed to be a mimitar weapon and supposed to be a weapon of choice for the Logis. It has low CPU which would help a Logi carry the required the required support equipment they are meant to carry. There needs to be some sort of initiative to promote solo use of the SMG. Currently it doesnt. Even the scrambler pistol is powerfull enough to take down heavies in 3-4 shots. But yet the SMG does not have that feature. Now dont get me wrong;- I use my SMGs with fluxes and nades and its really usefull there. But you always have to use the SMG with soemthing to bring out its effeciveness. RECON BY FIRE wrote: Why should an AR user be able to pump out that much damage and then switch to their SMG and continue to pump out the same amount of damage? If were gonna make it that way why not just make it to where you can carry two ARs or double the mag size on an AR? Same end result basically. As said before;- you can never good AR with a good SMG without compromising HP. That is fine with me because most one on ones are decided within the first 5 to 10 shots. And I love the idea of carrying 2 ARs. You should put it in the feedback section. I will promote it.

Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2012.12.10 22:10:00 - [11] - Quote Sentient Archon wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: In other words youre wrong and cant find a legitimate way to defend your argument? I agree the SMG could use a bit of a damage buff, and maybe nerf the muzzle flash so you can actually see any part of the screen. But outside of that its an SMG, what do you really want out of it? Its not a sub-HMG. Most ARs have a ROF or about 750 or more. SMGs are at 1000 or 1054. That means an SMG fires 1.33 times faster than an AR. SMG: 1.33 * 20 * 10 = 266 AR: 30 * 10 = 300 It increases over skills levels. If you want to see the SMG damage relative to the AR then here you go. I'm using the basic SMG which has a 1000rpm at 20 d/r with a 80 round magazine, and the basic AR which has a 750rpm at 30d/r with a 60 round cell.. I know the AR has a slightly higher actual rate of fire but I'll go with 750rpm. Basic SMG= 1000/60=~16.7 rounds per second at 20 damage=~334 potential damage per second with a mag emptied in about 4.8 seconds. Emptying a full mag has a damage potential of 80x20= 1600 Basic AR=750/60=12.5 rounds per second at 30 damage=375 potential damage per second with a cell emptied in 4.8 seconds. Emptying a full cell has a damage potential of 60x30=1800 Based on above, he AR has more damage, but it doesn't include the different performance of the solid slug of the SMG verses the plasma bolt of the AR, among other weapon traits. 1: The SMG slug is better then the AR bolt when used against armour but is less effective against shields. The AR bolt is evenly effective against both armour and shield. 2: Because the SMG has a higher rate of fire than the AR it has a better ROT(rounds on target). A user can miss with a few slugs and have more damage potential than an AR user missing with the same amount of bolts. 3: The SMG is purely meant for CQB. You go toe to toe with your target to be effective while using one. Getting in close to an objective I've left my AR slung, and taken out multiple attackers using my SMG loads of times. Its faster base reload speed makes a big difference.The AR is meant to cover both mid range and close range, hence the name assault, but makes small sacrifices to both areas for that duality. It'll get owned by a tactical at mid range and a SMG at close range. As far as I'm concerned we have the best weapon balance I've seen in the time I've played Dust. Each weapon has a niche that it'll excel in, with some potential to work in other areas. I don't think the SMG needs a buff even though it's on all my fittings. It's nice just the way it is. You'll get killed by the AR alot if you're just using the SMG, as the AR can engage you effectively long before the SMG is in range. The SMG is a sidearm, a backup to your main weapon. It is a lot of fun when conditions are right, but you might as well throw rocks at your target if you're out of range. As to the muzzle flash of the SMG, as in real life, it really does make it tough to use sights on full auto. Since CCP have said there will be options to fit each of the guns with different modules then I'm sure a flash suppressor will be available. Until then, pull that SMG tight to your hip, stand on their foot, and let rip


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