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SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 00:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Anyone know how the stacking penalty against mods work?
If I get shields back 25% quicker and throw in a second mod, do I get them back 35%? 40%?
I I recharge 42% faster and throw in another 42% mod, is it going to be 60-70%?
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The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1060
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. I think you must be mistaken. Or have no idea what I'm asking.
I'm lookin' in game right now, let me quote for you: "NOTE: Stacking penalties apply to this module: the effectiveness of each additional module after the first will be reduced." *Complex shield recharger*
My question: How much is it reduced per mod?
Also, you're completely wrong about the damage mods. >_> |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Stacking penalty broke this build. When it's working it uses the same formula as EVE. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is the only clue I have.
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=255750&page=1
Please keep in mind that this is data dating back to 2005.
========WARNING============== MATH INVOLVED - TYPE: FUNCTIONS ==============================
Eve-Wiki provides a more simplified explanation of the whole thing. Although I think they need to update their wiki because mathematical logic doesn't tell me to add the percentages together to find the accurate product of the stacking effects.
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penalty
It's hard to understand stacking penalties which is why I seem to have given up on understanding it.
Of course, please keep in mind that this formula is based on Eve mechanics. Dust is suppose to copy the same formulas but since we are in beta, the penalties are screwy. |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Stacking penalty broke this build. When it's working it uses the same formula as EVE. Which would be? Not an EVE player. Guess I could google it though since it's an EVE thing and not DUST.
But in case that fails, what is EVE's stacking penalty? |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:This is the only clue I have. http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=255750&page=1Please keep in mind that this is data dating back to 2005. ========WARNING============== MATH INVOLVED - TYPE: FUNCTIONS ============================== Eve-Wiki provides a more simplified explanation of the whole thing. Although I think they need to update their wiki because mathematical logic doesn't tell me to add the percentages together to find the accurate product of the stacking effects. http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penaltyIt's hard to understand stacking penalties which is why I seem to have given up on understanding it. Of course, please keep in mind that this formula is based on Eve mechanics. Dust is suppose to copy the same formulas but since we are in beta, the penalties are screwy. Nice, and thanks! |
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
108
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Posted - 2012.12.09 01:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I wonder what it'll be like on release.
I'm surprised they didn't do the old "two 10% modules equals 10% + (10% * 10%)" type thing. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
633
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Posted - 2012.12.09 02:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them.
You're still not understanding the math. Bonuses like that are multiplied, not added. So, even without stacking penalties, 3x10% isn't 1.1+1.1+1.1, it's 1.1*1.1*1.1 = 1.331
If the stacking penalties actually worked, for 3x10% it'd be 1.1*1.087*1.057 = 1.264 |
Th3rdSun
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
323
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Posted - 2012.12.09 02:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Basically,I think the penalty is on the effectiveness of the second module that you are equiping like it says,but I don't know by how much.
In essence,it really isn't a "penalty",it just diminishes effectiveness for stacking,which still gives you more for having two than one anyway.A real penalty would be to diminish some of effectiveness of the first module too.
Whatever the case,I like the way that it is now anyway. |
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Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
362
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Posted - 2012.12.09 12:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Stacking penalties are one of the great mysteries of the world. I know the formula is out there but it was a guess and sometimes the values that show in game are right and sometimes they're wrong. Last build they didn't even show up at all. Just because it says x1.33 doesn't mean you're actually getting that. And do we really know that it's broken? Seems like a DEV said something but I can't keep it all straight anymore. |
charlesnette dalari
Creative Killers
159
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Posted - 2012.12.09 13:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them.
you sir are absolutely correct. if others dont believe what you are saying they should try it with damage mods.
now i dont know if its the same with other modules but i personally have seen the damage mod bonus since i usually run 2-3 damage mods in my high slots |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
206
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
not sure on the math or how to get it; but i believe way back someone said (in regards to damage mods), it work like this:
10% for 1st 8% for 2nd 6% for 3rd
so instead of a 30% damage bonus, you'll actually be getting a 24% bonus |
Marston EV
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:Anyone know how the stacking penalty against mods work?
If I get shields back 25% quicker and throw in a second mod, do I get them back 35%? 40%?
I I recharge 42% faster and throw in another 42% mod, is it going to be 60-70%?
the penalty works like this for the first three mods you use
First mod works 100% Second works 87% third works about 50% so if you were using three complex damage mofifyers then it would add up to a 33% bonus, i believe with the complex shield regulators it comes up to around 48% or somethinng like that |
Marston EV
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them.
no.... there is a stacking penalty, the reason your suit says 1.33 multiplyer is because your probably have weaponry up to level 5, which equals an additional 10% damage. if you subtract 10% from 1.33 then you get the actual amount your getting from the damage modifyers (23%), which if you do the math like i explained it makes sense |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
206
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Posted - 2012.12.09 18:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Marston EV wrote:The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. no.... there is a stacking penalty, the reason your suit says 1.33 multiplyer is because your probably have weaponry up to level 5, which equals an additional 10% damage. if you subtract 10% from 1.33 then you get the actual amount your getting from the damage modifyers (23%), which if you do the math like i explained it makes sense
Weaponry skilling isnt shown in your dropsuit damage chart |
Marston EV
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.12.09 20:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Marston EV wrote:The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. no.... there is a stacking penalty, the reason your suit says 1.33 multiplyer is because your probably have weaponry up to level 5, which equals an additional 10% damage. if you subtract 10% from 1.33 then you get the actual amount your getting from the damage modifyers (23%), which if you do the math like i explained it makes sense Weaponry skilling isnt shown in your dropsuit damage chart
so why would it say 33% then??? |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
362
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Posted - 2012.12.10 00:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Because it's probably a glitch. Skills wouldn't show up because that stat is listing only what your suit is modding since your damage bonus from skills is always the same. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
208
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Posted - 2012.12.10 00:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
charlesnette dalari wrote:The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. you sir are absolutely correct. if others dont believe what you are saying they should try it with damage mods. now i dont know if its the same with other modules but i personally have seen the damage mod bonus since i usually run 2-3 damage mods in my high slots Here's the Maths ...
On 100hp damage ... First 10% gives 110hp Second 10% gives 121hp Third 10% gives 133.1hp
This is what happens when you apply 10% to a number 3 times.
I'm sure I've read an official acknowledgement that stacking penalties for Damage Mods aren't working.
Can't comment for other modules, I'm just showing the maths for the damage mods which are bugged. |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
362
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Posted - 2012.12.10 01:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:charlesnette dalari wrote:The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. you sir are absolutely correct. if others dont believe what you are saying they should try it with damage mods. now i dont know if its the same with other modules but i personally have seen the damage mod bonus since i usually run 2-3 damage mods in my high slots Here's the Maths ... On 100hp damage ... First 10% gives 110hp Second 10% gives 121hp Third 10% gives 133.1hp This is what happens when you apply 10% to a number 3 times. I'm sure I've read an official acknowledgement that stacking penalties for Damage Mods aren't working. Can't comment for other modules, I'm just showing the maths for the damage mods which are bugged.
Unless of course the entire bonus is applied to base damage and not compounded in which case you get:
100(1+(.1*3))=130
That's the way it's done with everything else anyway. And even if it was compounded you still shouldn't get x1.11 for a single
mod.
EDIT:Had to log in to get the numbers. Type-1 Heavy suit has base armor of 650. With Mechanic V you get 812 armor which is 650(1+(.05*5). What you're talking about would be 650(1.05^5) which is 829. |
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Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
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Posted - 2012.12.10 01:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
@Altina
It would actually be 829.583 (three decimal places in Eve). using the formula below.
Total Effective Hit Points = Base Hit Points x ( 1 + Multiplier ) ^ ( Skill Level )
It's basically the same thing as saying the following.
(((((650*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05) = 829
But the formula you were referring to only covers EHP affected only by skillbooks alone which are not affected by penalties.
The stacking penalties are what gave me the most trouble to figure out. So far, I have come to the following formula. Please correct me if my math is flawed. This formula is based on the assumption that the first fitted module is not affected by the penalties and you have fitted three modules that effect the same attribute.
Total Attribute After Multipliers and Penalties = ( ( ( Base Attribute After Skillbook Levels x [ 1 + Multiplier of 1st mod x 100% ] ) x [ 1 + Multiplier of 2nd mod x 87% ] ) x [ 1 + Multiplier of 3rd mod x 57% ] )
EDIT:
Remember the rules of linear equations:
Pretty Please My Dear Aunt Sally
=
Parenthesis First Powers Second Multiplication Third Division Fourth Addition Fifth Subtraction Sixth
In that exact order from left to right only. |
Altina McAlterson
TRUE TEA BAGGERS
362
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Posted - 2012.12.10 03:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
I was pointing out the error in a previous poster's who said this:
"Here's the Maths ...
On 100hp damage ... First 10% gives 110hp Second 10% gives 121hp Third 10% gives 133.1hp
This is what happens when you apply 10% to a number 3 times."
It isn't, in fact, (((((650*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05) = 829 or 650(1.05^5)=829. I know they're the same thing. Bonuses are applied in total to the base value (whether that value has already been modified by something else doesn't matter for this). That's why the actual formula for a modifier that does not have a stacking penalty is:
BASE x (1 + (M x N)
Where M is the modifier amount and N is the number of modifiers.
So your formula would actually look like this:
Base Attribute After Skillbook Levels x ( 1 + ([Multiplier of 1st mod x 100% ] x [Multiplier of 2nd mod x 87% ] x [Multiplier of 3rd mod x 57% ] )) |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.12.10 04:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:The dark cloud wrote:there is no stacking penalty. We have at the moment stacking bonus. For a example 3 damage mods on a A series assault dropsuit. Each mod has a 10% bonus towards damage with no penalty/bonus i would get 30% (1.3 multiplyer). But if you take a look on the ingame dropsuit stats it will tell you light damage mod: 1.33 multiplyer (33% bonus). So knowing that you get 1% bonus for each module when you stack them. I think you must be mistaken. Or have no idea what I'm asking. I'm lookin' in game right now, let me quote for you: "NOTE: Stacking penalties apply to this module: the effectiveness of each additional module after the first will be reduced." *Complex shield recharger* My question: How much is it reduced per mod? Also, you're completely wrong about the damage mods. >_> He's completely right. I've been rolling dual Complex on all my Assault suits, and the damage output is moronically high. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
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Posted - 2012.12.10 04:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
@Altina
Thanks for the clear up. Looks like the elusive penalty formula is not so elusive after all. The problem now is just which modules are affected. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
208
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Posted - 2012.12.10 18:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:I was pointing out the error in a previous poster's who said this:
"Here's the Maths ...
On 100hp damage ... First 10% gives 110hp Second 10% gives 121hp Third 10% gives 133.1hp
This is what happens when you apply 10% to a number 3 times."
It isn't, in fact, (((((650*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05)*1.05) = 829 or 650(1.05^5)=829. I know they're the same thing. Bonuses are applied in total to the base value (whether that value has already been modified by something else doesn't matter for this). That's why the actual formula for a modifier that does not have a stacking penalty is:
BASE x (1 + (M x N)
Where M is the modifier amount and N is the number of modifiers.
So your formula would actually look like this:
Base Attribute After Skillbook Levels x ( 1 + ([Multiplier of 1st mod x 100% ] x [Multiplier of 2nd mod x 87% ] x [Multiplier of 3rd mod x 57% ] )) There was no error in my post !
My post was in reply to a post about stacking penalties on Damage Mods which are bugged !
I was showing the maths that they are currently using to get the 1.33 multiplier by adding 10% 3 times consecutively.
As I've said ... there was no error in my post ... only in your understanding of it. |
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