DUST Search - The Thin Red Line

Maken Tosch wrote:

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

There is no red line in Eve. Once we're able to fully utilize the entire maps, not just the one/eighth or smaller sections we're on now, the red line may vanish all together.

As it sits right now, with such limited space for beta testing reasons, the red line is a necessary, though abused, mechanic that may be a non-issue in the near future.

Actually, there is. But it only affects anything you leave out unattended when downtime occurs.

Enter the realm of the Poseidon Point.

http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1003/Poseidon-Manual.pdf

Actually, it doesn't have an official name. Ever since Eve Online players discovered this quirk in the mechanics, they started abusing it for null-sec battles. After a while CCP decided to fix this exploit (yes, they called it an exploit) by imposing a limit of how many Astronomical Units (AU) from the nearest star you can setup a bookmark (which is a point in space). Any bookmarks that were Poseidon Points were rendered useless by taking away their ability to be warped to after a certain distance from the nearest star. At the same time, any items you leave out in space such a parked Titan, Carrier, Covert Ops ship, or even a simple giant secured container was instantly deleted once downtime kicks in.

As you can see, Poseidon Points were excellent for avoiding scanner probes that Capsuleers utilized to hunt down ships as most Capsuleers wouldn't bother scanning the outermost areas of the system map because there is just too much open space to scan through and god know how many Poseidon Points were setup in a single system to warp between.

As you can see, there is a red line in Eve Online. It's just something not a lot of people notice anymore.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2012.11.05 22:41:00 - [1] - Quote Yeah, I know it's been said, but not a dedicated post. How/when can we take the red line out of the equation? It shouldn't be used as a battle tactic; but that seems to be it's primary function anymore. Just disable being able to shoot through it and problem is solved......thoughts? (I know I can't be the only one tired of people using tanks and snipers in conjunction with red line manipulation to practically become invincible. If you are able to kill me, I should be able to kill you without some imaginary "red line" interfering).
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.11.05 22:44:00 - [2] - Quote The purpose of the red zone is to provide a safe haven to spawn. That having been said, players in New Eden are adept at learning new ways to use mechanics to their advantage. Not only does CCP permit this, they encourage it. They want people to be creative. If you do not enjoy being sniped by someone in the red zone, snipe back. HAV shooting you from there too? Call your own. There are counters. Adapt to the situation, or die. Those are the rules, harsh as they are.
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2012.11.05 23:13:00 - [3] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: The purpose of the red zone is to provide a safe haven to spawn. That having been said, players in New Eden are adept at learning new ways to use mechanics to their advantage. Not only does CCP permit this, they encourage it. They want people to be creative. If you do not enjoy being sniped by someone in the red zone, snipe back. HAV shooting you from there too? Call your own. There are counters. Adapt to the situation, or die. Those are the rules, harsh as they are. This is a bullshit mentality, no offence. Basically you are saying that we should be able to have a counter to EVERYTHING with the limited SP we get while the people using exploits specialize their SP on one thing. Basically I CAN build my own Sica/Soma build with my logi-specialized SP build, but it won't do sh*t to Sagaris/Gunnlogi/etc. builds.
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2012.11.05 23:23:00 - [4] - Quote To be honest, you should never have to counter using the same tactic, cause that's not a counter. Also, if we are living by Eve rules and it's adapt or die mentality; then shouldn't the red line be removed altogether? Honestly though, even if we took your approach it wouldn't solve the problem. That is unless you can one shot a tank with your tank? As soon as the tank takes a coupla hits, it will simply move 3ft back into cover under the protection of the red line until the shields are back. Rinse and repeat.
Villore Isu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.11.05 23:23:00 - [5] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: The purpose of the red zone is to provide a safe haven to spawn. That having been said, players in New Eden are adept at learning new ways to use mechanics to their advantage. Not only does CCP permit this, they encourage it. They want people to be creative. "The smartest assholes in the world" apparently (Dev quote) While CCP does like people coming up with creative uses of various mechanics, there is a fine line between using and breaking - a line that gets pretty damn blurry at times. In general, if an 'exploit' is not directly against the spirit of game mechanics, it's fine. Of course what the spirit of a mechanic actually is, is by it's very nature impossible to define in exact terms. With regards to the redline issue, @OP have you ever been red lined in a match? It sucks, and would suck even more of you couldn't shoot out of it, thus I believe that sniping in the red zone is within the spirit of the mechanic. However, that doesn't mean it can't be adjusted. For example, one of the long term plans to tackle RR boosting in your red zone is to introduce 'yellow zones' in the places where you can go but the enemy can't (ie. the safe spawn areas), in these yellow zones reps would work in full but not give you any WP. Perhaps a similar system could be introduced for weapons as well?
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.11.05 23:27:00 - [6] - Quote Revelations 514 wrote: Yeah, I know it's been said, but not a dedicated post. How/when can we take the red line out of the equation? It shouldn't be used as a battle tactic; but that seems to be it's primary function anymore. Just disable being able to shoot through it and problem is solved......thoughts? (I know I can't be the only one tired of people using tanks and snipers in conjunction with red line manipulation to practically become invincible. If you are able to kill me, I should be able to kill you without some imaginary "red line" interfering). The red line is important. If a team is getting steamrolled, that is the last line of defense that prevents a complete massacre. The problem is that the redline is located in amazingly strategic locations so that it is beneficial for snipers and vehicles to sit behind it while remaining difficult to neutralize. Change the the location of the redline, not the redline.
Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2012.11.05 23:32:00 - [7] - Quote If my team is red lined, then we deserve to be. I don' t wish to encourage everyone to bust out their favorite sniper fit to sit back and snipe from red line territory. I would prefer they were encouraged to branch out, everyone make a mad dash, form a strategy, or basically anything other than sit back in the spawn point. The only time you can really spawn in behind the red line naturally is in objective based games anyways, so if you sit back in your spawn and do nothing you are defeating the "spirit of the mechanic" by not participating in the goal of winning the match. No coddling is needed so imo we could do away with the red line altogether. However, if you want a safe spawn in that's fine. In the "spirit of the mechanic" you do not need to shoot in order to formulate a squad, spawn, call in some support or vehicles or whatnot, and get back out there; passed the red line.
D'Finn Rhedlyne Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 266	Posted - 2012.11.06 00:05:00 - [8] - Quote <<<< You can never take the Rhedlyne out of the equation...
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.06 00:54:00 - [9] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: The purpose of the red zone is to provide a safe haven to spawn. That having been said, players in New Eden are adept at learning new ways to use mechanics to their advantage. Not only does CCP permit this, they encourage it. They want people to be creative. If you do not enjoy being sniped by someone in the red zone, snipe back. HAV shooting you from there too? Call your own. There are counters. Adapt to the situation, or die. Those are the rules, harsh as they are. This is a bullshit mentality, no offence. Basically you are saying that we should be able to have a counter to EVERYTHING with the limited SP we get while the people using exploits specialize their SP on one thing. Basically I CAN build my own Sica/Soma build with my logi-specialized SP build, but it won't do sh*t to Sagaris/Gunnlogi/etc. builds. I think what the gentleman was trying to say is comparable to an Iteron V taking down a Megathron in Eve. YouTube it and see what I mean. For those who are not the sharpest tools in the box, an Iteron is an industrial hauler while a Megathron is a battleship. Think of an LAV taking down a Sagaris.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.06 00:58:00 - [10] - Quote red zone should be safe to spawn but having tanks jus spam missiles from them is kinda dumb how do u balance tho? im for makin it so u cant shoot if ur in it aka tanks sittin on redzone gettin free kills but how do u balance that with attackers being able to shoot u while ur in the red? should it just be lik PS2 and instead of a redline ur "base" would be protected by a force field or sorts? u cant shoot out and they cant shoot in

Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:01:00 - [11] - Quote I really hope at least null sec battles have no red line
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:14:00 - [12] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: I really hope at least null sec battles have no red line This.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:17:00 - [13] - Quote Nothing is more satisfying than creeping through the (non team-dependent) redzone to get the jump on a sniper
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:18:00 - [14] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: I really hope at least null sec battles have no red line This. I'm pretty sure that by the time there are null sec battles, no battles will have a red line (except maybe at the extremes of the map)
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:20:00 - [15] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Nothing is more satisfying than creeping through the (non team-dependent) redzone to get the jump on a sniper really? all that work just for 1 kill
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.06 01:28:00 - [16] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: I really hope at least null sec battles have no red line i hope so as well imo maps will be bigger and we will be in control of the MCC which will be movable like the earlier builds and gives u a dynamic spawn point
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.11.06 06:08:00 - [17] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: The purpose of the red zone is to provide a safe haven to spawn. That having been said, players in New Eden are adept at learning new ways to use mechanics to their advantage. Not only does CCP permit this, they encourage it. They want people to be creative. If you do not enjoy being sniped by someone in the red zone, snipe back. HAV shooting you from there too? Call your own. There are counters. Adapt to the situation, or die. Those are the rules, harsh as they are. This is a bullshit mentality, no offence. Basically you are saying that we should be able to have a counter to EVERYTHING with the limited SP we get while the people using exploits specialize their SP on one thing. Basically I CAN build my own Sica/Soma build with my logi-specialized SP build, but it won't do sh*t to Sagaris/Gunnlogi/etc. builds. I killed a sagaris earlier with a sica...and I run logi on the ground...
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.06 22:36:00 - [18] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Nothing is more satisfying than creeping through the (non team-dependent) redzone to get the jump on a sniper really? all that work just for 1 kill I did it before with my nova knife fit. Quite fun actually.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 164	Posted - 2012.11.07 00:41:00 - [19] - Quote There is no red line in Eve. Once we're able to fully utilize the entire maps, not just the one/eighth or smaller sections we're on now, the red line may vanish all together. As it sits right now, with such limited space for beta testing reasons, the red line is a necessary, though abused, mechanic that may be a non-issue in the near future.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.11.07 01:53:00 - [20] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: There is no red line in Eve. Once we're able to fully utilize the entire maps, not just the one/eighth or smaller sections we're on now, the red line may vanish all together. As it sits right now, with such limited space for beta testing reasons, the red line is a necessary, though abused, mechanic that may be a non-issue in the near future. Actually, there is. But it only affects anything you leave out unattended when downtime occurs. Enter the realm of the Poseidon Point. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1003/Poseidon-Manual.pdf Actually, it doesn't have an official name. Ever since Eve Online players discovered this quirk in the mechanics, they started abusing it for null-sec battles. After a while CCP decided to fix this exploit (yes, they called it an exploit) by imposing a limit of how many Astronomical Units (AU) from the nearest star you can setup a bookmark (which is a point in space). Any bookmarks that were Poseidon Points were rendered useless by taking away their ability to be warped to after a certain distance from the nearest star. At the same time, any items you leave out in space such a parked Titan, Carrier, Covert Ops ship, or even a simple giant secured container was instantly deleted once downtime kicks in. As you can see, Poseidon Points were excellent for avoiding scanner probes that Capsuleers utilized to hunt down ships as most Capsuleers wouldn't bother scanning the outermost areas of the system map because there is just too much open space to scan through and god know how many Poseidon Points were setup in a single system to warp between. As you can see, there is a red line in Eve Online. It's just something not a lot of people notice anymore.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.07 02:33:00 - [21] - Quote Everything's a lie. Everything you hear, everything you see. So much to spew out. They just keep coming, one after another. You're in a box. A moving box. They want you dead, or in their lie... There's only one thing a man can do - find something that's his, and make an island for himself. If I never meet you in this life, let me feel the lack; a glance from your eyes, and my life will be yours. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ARKRz-vbwwI#t=326s
Wako 75 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 76	Posted - 2012.11.07 03:55:00 - [22] - Quote hopefully closer to launch they may add shield bubbles and have battle commander drop them in the base but they would have hp alot but if a good tank got to it it would be destroyed hehe
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 164	Posted - 2012.11.07 06:56:00 - [23] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: There is no red line in Eve. Once we're able to fully utilize the entire maps, not just the one/eighth or smaller sections we're on now, the red line may vanish all together. As it sits right now, with such limited space for beta testing reasons, the red line is a necessary, though abused, mechanic that may be a non-issue in the near future. Actually, there is. But it only affects anything you leave out unattended when downtime occurs. Enter the realm of the Poseidon Point. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1003/Poseidon-Manual.pdf Actually, it doesn't have an official name. Ever since Eve Online players discovered this quirk in the mechanics, they started abusing it for null-sec battles. After a while CCP decided to fix this exploit (yes, they called it an exploit) by imposing a limit of how many Astronomical Units (AU) from the nearest star you can setup a bookmark (which is a point in space). Any bookmarks that were Poseidon Points were rendered useless by taking away their ability to be warped to after a certain distance from the nearest star. At the same time, any items you leave out in space such a parked Titan, Carrier, Covert Ops ship, or even a simple giant secured container was instantly deleted once downtime kicks in. As you can see, Poseidon Points were excellent for avoiding scanner probes that Capsuleers utilized to hunt down ships as most Capsuleers wouldn't bother scanning the outermost areas of the system map because there is just too much open space to scan through and god know how many Poseidon Points were setup in a single system to warp between. As you can see, there is a red line in Eve Online. It's just something not a lot of people notice anymore. Interesting read but it's not the same as the red line we seem to be talking about here. Sure a fleet could have hidden in a bookmarked E-warp spot, but I couldn't snipe a ship or a POS, with my T2 Tachyon fit Apoc, from that E-warp location like long range weapon users do from behind the red line in Dust.


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