DUST Search - Overnerfing: Then and Now (AV/Tank Nerf & WP / Precision Strike Nerf)

Raven Tesio wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable.
Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling...

CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing).

I'd agree with this... been playing EVE for damn near 9 years now, something I've noticed when a big enough group of people QQ about something rather than subjectively sitting down and deciding what to do. CCP will simple blap! an entire range of things.

Most memorable to me was one Alliance Tournament the Gallente Cruiser (Thorax) was used considerably with a high-level of success. Everyone cried that Blasters were over-powered, damn near overnight CCP destroyed the damage output of ALL Hybrid weaponry to oblivion which yeah brought Blasters a little more in-line on Gallente ships with bonus' but in one swift swoop all destroyed the PvP ability of every single Caldari Gunboat as they used Hybrids but only had a Range Bonus over damage.


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Aq'sa L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 44	Posted - 2012.10.12 21:39:00 - [1] - Quote Respectfully understanding that balance isn't final, I agree. Double Nerfs in reaction to forum tears is actually becoming the norm. I know CCP has to rely on the betatesters feedback- that IS a good thing. Hell, we all love as much response to our suggestions as possible, but I think we need more introspection to the root cause for forum complaints, not simply a direct reaction to the complaint. For example- The reactionary measure to nerf the Breach AR Class: Creodron had high per shot damage, but was on the lower range of DPS for prototype rifles. It had decent accuracy / low recoil. The obviously high damage/shot led it to be picked up by many of our casual FPS testers who aren't the Eve theorycrafters who calculate DPS almost religiously. Despite the large number of people deploying Creodron Breaches, the three shot burst and tactical rifles were successfully deployed against them, frequently, with plenty of success, during the E3 build. The large amount of Creodron use led to forum tears however, which led to the nerf hammer. Nerfing the Breach Assault Rifles, instead of bringing accuracy up and recoil down for the alternatives to balance them out, was the reaction. The Creodron, one of the lowest DPS prototype rifles, with exceptional accuracy, is nerfed to even lower DPS, without addressing the fact that the 'tactical' rifle rifle- single shot & performed better in DPS- had lower accuracy than the fully auto Breach rifle. The 3 shot burst had more recoil than the fully auto. This is not only illogical, but led to the only true unbalances in the class. These simply needed accuracy boosts to fall in line balance-wise. Similar changes have happened to other things used frequently, thus complained about frequently. All of the following could have benefitted form balance finesse instead of the gross nerf pendulum swings we are experiencing. HAV (Cost Increase + Nerf); Railgun Installation ( Rotation Speed + Splash Damage Reduction + Overheat Rate Increase); Prototype Dropsuits (HP Reduction + Cost Increase). Every one of the above would have benefitted from tweaks (cost increase alone would have had most of the desired effects for HAV & Prototype Gear) but there seems to be a tendency to try and slam dunk a problem instead of a simple, effective lay-up.
Aq'sa L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 44	Posted - 2012.10.15 14:24:00 - [2] - Quote Raven Tesio wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The breach assault rifle as well. Instead of being made equal to the AR, it now has less damage per magazine, less damage per minute, still cost MORE ISK, and the hipfire accuracy difference between the breach and the basic variant is barely noticeable. Dropships as well. They increase targeting range so weapons can hit dropships on towers (good), they change the controls to make dropships more difficult to fly (ok), they remove all the BPO (ok), they raise the price (the rest was already enough), then they raise the price again so that a militia dropship cost more than a tank (they could have just lowered the price of tanks), and they also add a damn ceiling... CCP is just terrible at nerfing things, and it kind of scares me whenever people (including me) call attention to a balance issue because CCP might overdo it again. They really need to be more subtle with their nerfs, and stop nerfing something at the same time as buffing its counterpart (Vehicles and AV, hit detection and strafing). I'd agree with this... been playing EVE for damn near 9 years now, something I've noticed when a big enough group of people QQ about something rather than subjectively sitting down and deciding what to do. CCP will simple blap! an entire range of things. Most memorable to me was one Alliance Tournament the Gallente Cruiser (Thorax) was used considerably with a high-level of success. Everyone cried that Blasters were over-powered, damn near overnight CCP destroyed the damage output of ALL Hybrid weaponry to oblivion which yeah brought Blasters a little more in-line on Gallente ships with bonus' but in one swift swoop all destroyed the PvP ability of every single Caldari Gunboat as they used Hybrids but only had a Range Bonus over damage. With CCP there is impetus to show paying players that they listen, and I respect that in a huge way. What is needed from a mathematical, or game design, 'best practice' perspective, though, is to analyze certain chosen metrics- kills w/ x weapon on the server lets say. Then do minor hotfix tweaks to stats- for 2-3 days duration- of ONE (and only one) variable be it DPS, Dmg/Clip, Accuracy, recoil, missile range, etc etc etc and see how it affects the metric you chose. There are thousands of kills a day- should be enough to be statistically significant data. You then REVERT the changes, and try a different fix, and around and around, getting a good idea what variables effect what outcomes.