DUST Search - [request] more militia gear.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

knight of 6 wrote:

I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills.

NOPE.
Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get unlimited quantities of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon.

Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities.
I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers.


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Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.11.26 21:53:00 - [1] - Quote Based on my testing most weapons (the notable exception under the current build being the AR line, with a lessor nod going to the shotgun line) don't show their true potential and value until you've really skilled into them. Running proto sniper rifles with top skills isn't the same as running a militia sniper rifle without the sniper specific skills to support it (nor should it be). Militia weapons should be present and they should give you a feel for the nature of using the weapon. A militia Forge Gun should have some utility against a Militia HAV comparable to a Proto Forge vs a Proto HAV. Learning basics of how a weapon shoots, zooms, reloads, fires. What movement is like with that weapon, etc. Those are all key player UI elements to use of the weapon and there's really no reason why use of the AR or Shotgun should require fewer SP invested than use of an equivalent meta level Mass Driver or other niche weapon. Introducing militia variants would certainly require some balance effort so that they're not either A)useless or B) a more viable option than the current Meta one version of the weapon. But I'm fully confident that CCP is capable of the iterations needed to fine tune that. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.12.17 06:27:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: knight of 6 wrote: I'd like to try out the forge gun. but I don't want to skill in it just to find out I don't like it. every gun in the game should have a militia variation to encourage players to experiment with them and find awesome unique fits that match their play style. choosing the level in something is a big commitment (as it should be), so levelling in something you find out you hate is a huge waste. naturally the solution is to have militia gear that doesn't require any skills. NOPE. Not only no but hell no. I say this only because it sounds like you're suggesting this for launch, and that would be a terrible idea. As CCP has said many times, the more gear you can get *unlimited quantities* of with one purchase, the worse off the market is. I know everyone is constantly saying this game isn't EVE, but if you want to use a Forge Gun, you should have to skill for it. Same with any other higher level or Heavy weapon. Militia gear =/= unlimited quantities. I understand that cheap forge guns would be bad since vehicles are expensive, but it can have its power be severely reduced (like a militia forge gun can do half the damage of a standard). Even if that's still not acceptable, there is no reason why we shouldn't have militia anti-personnel weapons like laser rifles and mass drivers. I honestly don't see Militia Forge Guns as a threat to a HAV (granted a Militia HAV can be taken out by a Militia Forge Gun but that's a given and so can a missile LAV, AV grenades,etc.). Having played a great deal with a basic Forge Gun I can say with certainty that they're not a real threat to anything beyond Milita, as an example last night I hit a (non-proto) shield HAV with 4 Forge Gun shots and only took 50% of it's shields. Add to that increased PG/CPU requirements, standard suit cost et al and you really don't have anything game breaking. I still think that exposure allows for a greater chance of diversification, and diversification is good for the long term health of the game. Additionally if (as Overlord suggests) the balancing is done by increasing PG/CPU requirements that can elicit another benefit. It will naturally push new players to develop their support skills, and their critical thinking when it comes to fitting choices. Both of those are also quite positive for long term game health and player retention. Then there's the thorny issue of Militia BPOs. Again I think this issue has been overblown, last I checked (which granted was prior to this build so maybe CCPs changed it, but I don't know why they would) the Militia BPOs had higher PG/CPU requirements than the same Militia item in a non-BPO form. In such a state if an AUR purchased Militia BPO has any profoundly destabilizing effect on the economy that would indicate a much more significant problem. The problem being that the progression value of higher Meta items fails to provide worthwhile utility over the Militia version even with the support skills required to unlock those items. If the proper utility incentive is lacking to that degree both game balance and the in game economy are going to suffer when we go live, and I for one would rather see that now during beta then after launch. Certainly propagation of high Meta BPOs is a profoundly detrimental idea to the health of the game, but the addition of a few niche mods/weapons when BPOs for the most used weapons and gear are already present? I simply don't see how that can realistically be harmful to the game. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ Just because otherwise someone's likely to bring this up, none of the proposed additional Militia items would directly benefit my game play as I already have/use gear better than they would be. If there were ever any BPOs made of them I might spend some AUR to pick those up but that's more a function of my OCD collectors impulse than it is any desire to revert to lower quality fits. Point being the above isn't presented for personal gain but rather for the overall health of the game. EDIT: Regarding the Test Ground, it would be a nice place to work out fittings and builds however there are a few flaws I see with it. Firstly there's setting, in New Eden thus far there's very little in the way of "no risk" activities and I've doubts that CCP (or large parts of the player base for that matter) would want to change that because there's no getting around calls for such a thing in EVE if it's added to D514. Second and more importantly there's the question of development resources, it's going to be much less resource intensive to plug in the stats for a militia version of a few given weapons than to code an additional area/mode with all attendant server support, skill toggling (meaning having the game track where you are when deciding the skills applied for equipping gear, creating fittings etc). Currently I'm ambivalent as to actually including such a thing in Dust, but it certainly isn't the easier solution for beta testing (after all if Milita versions are actually detrimental CCP will notice and remove them before live, that's why we beta test)