DUST Search - why Change the KD score board to war points?

Zekain Kade wrote:

The high KD players will still be at the top. You can go ahead and use a skirmish game for an example.

Player A isn't a great slayer, but is attempting to hack the objective

Player B is a great slayer , and is oging around killing enemies.

Player A manages to hack the objective, and queue it for the side flip. He eventually caps it, and gains 100 WP.

Player B kills 4 people during the time it took for Player A to cap that point. Player B now has 200 WP.

Sure, all the logi players will get some recognition now, but they will still be at the bottom of the score board with the lowest WP score. High KD players will probably always be at the top of the score board, and changing it to war points wont change that.

Changing the score board to war points is basically a cry from the bad players because the want to look like they helped when they really didn't.

a lot of you will have a hard time getting over 300 points, while I'll probably be hitting 1000 in nearly every game.

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Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.09.22 04:48:00 - [1] - Quote The high KD players will still be at the top. You can go ahead and use a skirmish game for an example. Player A isn't a great slayer, but is attempting to hack the objective Player B is a great slayer , and is oging around killing enemies. Player A manages to hack the objective, and queue it for the side flip. He eventually caps it, and gains 100 WP. Player B kills 4 people during the time it took for Player A to cap that point. Player B now has 200 WP. Sure, all the logi players will get some recognition now, but they will still be at the bottom of the score board with the lowest WP score. High KD players will probably always be at the top of the score board, and changing it to war points wont change that. Changing the score board to war points is basically a cry from the bad players because the want to look like they helped when they really didn't. a lot of you will have a hard time getting over 300 points, while I'll probably be hitting 1000 in nearly every game.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.09.22 04:51:00 - [2] - Quote You get more points for rezzing/repping/spawning/supplying than you doing for getting kills. Not sure what makes you think Logi's would be at the bottom. If a Logi is doing their job well, they could probably reach the top relatively easy.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.09.22 04:54:00 - [3] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: You get more points for rezzing/repping/spawning/supplying than you doing for getting kills. Not sure what makes you think Logi's would be at the bottom. If a Logi is doing their job well, they could probably reach the top relatively easy. those passive opportunities to gain warpoints aren't nearly as common as the aggressive way. High KDs player will always be at the top.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:02:00 - [4] - Quote Um.... Sorry bro but when I go logi I get 8 kills still, plus each revive is 60 points, each spawn is 15 points, and my ammo resupply gives me a ton of points. Not to mention logi have faster hacking time. Just travel in a group, use the tacical Rfile for easy long range kills. When your done fighting revive your whole squad. For every death which pays out 50 points, you could revive someone for 60 points. How is revives less common? I think OP is just a noob and we can ignore this topic
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:03:00 - [5] - Quote The potential sources of warpoints aren't limited to hacking cap points and killing. Kill assists(+25), vehicle kill assists(+35), drop uplink use(+25), nanohive use(+10), revives(+60), and repair(+25) all spring to mind. On top of that are new assist points coming in the next build, namely transport assists for dropships. Let's make a quick comparison of the extremes. A very skilled player may get 20 kills in a match. We'll assume for simplicity's sake that they didn't bother capping anything, just got their 20 kills. That's 1000 warpoints. Let's compare him to a fairly crappy logi player such as myself. I might pull off three kills, that's 150 points. I'll probably get five revives. That's 300 warpoints. My severely underutilized drop uplinks (seriously, guys, use them) will net me another 150 points. I can usually swing 50 points in resupply and 50 in repair. That's put me at an average of 550 warpoints. So as you can see even comparing a bottom-of-the-barrel support player such as myself to a top scorer of slaying the difference isn't all that vast. A skilled, well outfitted logi, especially one with a decent team, would pull in more than 1000 warpoints in pretty much every match. And man, when I get transport assists for my dropship. Mwa ha ha, the points are gonna be rolling in!
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:03:00 - [6] - Quote Pretty sure spawn is +25.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:08:00 - [7] - Quote I support the warpoints shown over K/D. Although I still would like to be able to see how I did in a match in terms of kills, also am really curious to how many assists I get too. Ideally this is what it should be: Warpoints determine ranking on the match scoreboard, however they should also show how many kills that player got. But it should only show kills, not deaths. So say you have two players at the top with nearly the same warpoints, one has 20 kills while the other has 4. Well, its clear who went for objectives and who held the enemies back. Showing KDR in a game like this doesn't seem right. Dust is all about teamwork, and KDR is usually synonymous with being selfish despite the team, just to get the best KDR possible. In a COD game KDR makes sense, but for such a teamwork reliant game like Dust, showing KDR, IMO, hurts the teamwork aspect. If people know they can play and sacrifice themselves for the good of the team without being embarrassed at their extremely poor KDR, then there will be more productive players who care less about their KDR than they do helping the team.
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:13:00 - [8] - Quote KDR is a meaningless stat in New Eden anyway. Clones are cheap, gear is not. Isk efficiency is what should really be used to determine who is the best killer. The guy who killed a dozen scrubs in militia suits should not rank above the guy who blew up a Marauder.
Waruiko DUST G I A N T 90	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:25:00 - [9] - Quote blowing up marauders isn't that hard now but I agree with the point. I know the only reason people even care about KDR in EVE is because kills there represent strain on logistics during war time because new ships have to be freighted in to replace the lost ones, but ISK destroyed ovver ISK lost is IMO a far better metric. even more so when people resupplying gear is such a non issue.
Sake Monster Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 353	Posted - 2012.09.22 05:58:00 - [10] - Quote Zekain, you are right and wrong. You're right in the sense that a solo logi, running around a map alone trying to help his team by repping and rezzing randoms and not killing the enemy effectively will probably find it very difficult to make it to the top of the post-game WP leaderboards. And you are right that the best killers will still be at or close to the top of the post-match WP leaderboards regardless. But a logi actually fullfilling his purpose (and doing it well) can easily top the post-game WP board. To clarify, IMO, a logi's sole purpose is to make dedicated killers better and more deadly. He does this through the standard logi roles (revives, repairs, ammo, uplinks), and also by being the guy taking time out to place orders so the killers can continue to rack in kill WPs with bonuses, and also by providing support fire and being able to kill others by himself. it's true, a skilled killer does not necessarily need a logi, but i know the dedicated killers i roll with would rather have me on their team than another Scout, Heavy, or Assault. And I DESTROY the WP leaderboards along with them (I would almost always finish with more WP than the solo killers). Case in point: My Logi a** is currently right above you on the WP leaderboards with about 3,700 less kills Then again, It's also true that the great logi's are few and far between.... So you are also correct that changing the post-game leaderboards from Kills to War Points would be mostly irrelevant.

Billi Gene Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2012.09.22 07:22:00 - [11] - Quote as far as post game results/stats, i'd like to see "isk lost/isk destroyed" As someone who went hard into AV early on this build (my tears are gone now, i don't need your sympathy for that choice !!!), if i am going AV hard in a match, my K/DR will be woeful and my WP in a similar state, but if i am actually taking out dropships, HAV's and LAV's then the total cost I am inflicting on the other team, will be much more relevant to my performance. Rank, Name, WP, KD/R, Assists, ISK Lost//ISK destroyed A total Cost/Destroyed per team would also be a nice touch. ((imho)) edit: added in assists....
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.09.22 08:13:00 - [12] - Quote Your reasoning assumes that the people hacking objectives, dropping uplinks and hives, rezzing, etc can't also be right up there in the mix for KDR as well. If I go 13-5 and you go 17-4, but I also got 4 hacks, 15 team spawns, 10 team resupplies, took out an HAV two LAVs and a dropship, and snagged a couple of rezzes and you didn't do any support stuff at all, currently you show up at the top of the board even though your marginallly higher KDR was of less consequence than all the support stuff I did.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.09.22 08:46:00 - [13] - Quote one of the smartest builds is a Basic assault suit, with a nanite injector. In fact why is anyone fitting anything but the nanite injector on the basic suit? it's stupid not to have the whole gunner team to have revives. The logi is the last suit you should put a nanite injector on.
SYST3M 0V3RL0AD Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.09.22 09:19:00 - [14] - Quote It was likely always planned to rank by WP and due to technical issues or something, the easier kill/death method was used temporarily. Maybe they expected to make adjustments to the WP earned for things which would have totally messed up the leaderboards every time they made a change. Kills don't fluctuate. 1 = 1. Always.There is never a need to change that and thereby never a concern of the leaderboard going nutty. Just my guess. WP are a much more fair and logical way to rank players since on the battlefield, killing is only one piece of the puzzle with many other pieces playing a role. WP are tallied by everything you do to help the team. It only makes sense to rank it by that and not just one of 10+ factors that go into calculating WP.
Drake Lyons Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.09.22 09:37:00 - [15] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: The high KD players will still be at the top. You can go ahead and use a skirmish game for an example. Okay, so your hypothesis is that players with a high KD ratio will dominate the WP leader boards. And a conjecture from there is that the devs should just leave it as a KD leader board since the same players - and only the same players - will be featured. From which we can conclude you think KD is a superior and more meaningful statistic. Zekain Kade wrote: Player A isn't a great slayer, but is attempting to hack the objective Player B is a great slayer , and is oging around killing enemies. Player A manages to hack the objective, and queue it for the side flip. He eventually caps it, and gains 100 WP. Player B kills 4 people during the time it took for Player A to cap that point. Player B now has 200 WP. Alright, so here's the hypothetical example to support your hypothesis and subsequent conjecture. Clearly, in this situation, the 'slayer' is coming out on top. This is definitely a plausible situation, but is a very microcosmic way of looking at things. It concerns, at most, a minute or two or play time from one game, not mention performance over and entire game or average performance over dozens of games. For example, will the 'slayer' always reap kills at the same rate, or will the other types of players have a greater likelihood of sustained - though less maximal - growth rates of WP? Zekain Kade wrote: Sure, all the logi players will get some recognition now, but they will still be at the bottom of the score board with the lowest WP score. High KD players will probably always be at the top of the score board, and changing it to war points wont change that. Restatement of the original thesis. Gotcha. KD = WP, therefore High KD = High WP > Low WP = Low KD. Subsequently, KD > WP. Zekain Kade wrote: Changing the score board to war points is basically a cry from the bad players because the want to look like they helped when they really didn't. But...wait. In order for that to be true, your original thesis and hypothesis would have to be false... Zekain Kade wrote: a lot of you will have a hard time getting over 300 points, while I'll probably be hitting 1000 in nearly every game. I bet a lot of people will have a hard time regularly getting 300 WP, and you may very well keep up over 1000 average. Sme things to consider, however... Total WP also takes into account both player skill and time spent playing. It's a better measure of lifetime accomplishment, versus a simple ratio that could be calculated from a very small sample size. Ultimately, well have to wait and see. I fully expect to see 'slayers' up at the top of the WP boards. Along with some pilots, some AV/AI specialists, snd some logisticians. I don't know that there will be clear and utter dominance you expect, and I don't believe there is such a strong perfect correlation between KD and WP.
Chihiro Itto 66	Posted - 2012.09.22 09:38:00 - [16] - Quote I consider myself a support player and generally average in a combat situation, but I've been top in some battles simply because I was doing multiple team-objective related actions all match. The score board should be showing a true representation of what is important in Dust. Kills are obviously important (and in Ambush I would agree KDR matters more), but in Skirmish a team that spends all match safely sat in it's comfort zone sniping/bombarding the enemy for huge numbers of kills can still be beaten by a bunch of militia scouts capping objectives, even if they never kill a single enemy. In what sense then does KDR matter? It's like measuring the success of a football team by how many tackles they made and ignoring goals scored.
Darky SI 232	Posted - 2012.09.22 12:15:00 - [17] - Quote I suggested this few weeks ago and a DEV had a look at it i hope they will give us something similar: No\|PlayerName\|Warpoints\| KDR\| 1. \| Mercenary \| 4000 pnts\| 6/12 \| 2. \| Mercenary \| 3500 pnts\| 10/8 \| 3. \| Mercenary \| 3000 pnts\| 20/5 \| 4. \| Mercenary \| 2500 pnts\| 13/2 \| 5. \| Mercenary \| 2000 pnts\| 5/10 \| As you can see the order is based in the amount of Warpoints you get or Score if Warpoints can not be used for some reason still the KDR guys can show off there skills while rewarding the most active players by placing them in the top of the leaderboards. CCP can go even further by adding other stats to the leaderboard like assists, hacks etc if the screen premits such detailed leaderbords.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.09.22 12:28:00 - [18] - Quote LoL go on. Remove KDR. Watch the garbage float to the surface... FFS you think position on a leaderboard matters? If the screen says Victory you did enough. If not, try harder and get better friends. KDR/war points are irrelevant. Waypoints in particular. (I can get 5k waypoints from a game with a good squad leader. Tbh war points just tell you who the pointwhores are.) Darky is right though, more statistics than just kills/deaths at the end would be nice.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:00:00 - [19] - Quote Agreed, more stats would be nice. I actually would like to see end-match rankings based on war points. Not because it'll drastically change who's on top. (you'll mostly still see the same names in the top 2 or 3) But it DOES give some of those players motivation to do stuff other than just kill. Repair, drop uplinks, revive, etc. This is big, particularly for those that just aren't good at killing anyway. I hate to bring it up, BUT, it worked well for MAG.
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:04:00 - [20] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: If the screen says Victory you did enough. I will posit one exception to this statement: damage done in isk. It is possible to create a Pyrrhic victory for your enemies where they accomplish the objectives on the field but lose too much equipment in the process to justify it. You'll see this sometimes in EVE where one fleet may destroy or route the other, but because they lost a few very expensive ships it can't really be considered a win for them.

DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:09:00 - [21] - Quote Lower WP for kills, or raise it for everything else.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:13:00 - [22] - Quote Logi can get more points than anyone in the game if done right \thread
Constable Jones Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 22	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:19:00 - [23] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: The high KD players will still be at the top. You can go ahead and use a skirmish game for an example. Player A isn't a great slayer, but is attempting to hack the objective Player B is a great slayer , and is oging around killing enemies. Player A manages to hack the objective, and queue it for the side flip. He eventually caps it, and gains 100 WP. Player B kills 4 people during the time it took for Player A to cap that point. Player B now has 200 WP. Sure, all the logi players will get some recognition now, but they will still be at the bottom of the score board with the lowest WP score. High KD players will probably always be at the top of the score board, and changing it to war points wont change that. Changing the score board to war points is basically a cry from the bad players because the want to look like they helped when they really didn't. a lot of you will have a hard time getting over 300 points, while I'll probably be hitting 1000 in nearly every game. Welp. You quite obviously have no idea what you're talking about. 'Cause if you know what you're doing as a logibro and have a squad that's sensible you can rack up 1000 warpoints in a couple of minutes without really trying. Hell, your example is one guy being 'great' and killing four people in about a minute. While another guy is taking and holding an objective without killing anyone? Wha?
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:24:00 - [24] - Quote The score screen should be a menu in itself I think. I want all the details. K/D, WP, who I killed, who killed me. With some many ways to play this game I want that reflected in the end tally screen.


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