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Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.02 20:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Benjamin Hellios wrote:They're not afraid, they're just taking their time trying to make sure they're doing it right, which makes sense with a project of this magnitude. fanboy excuse 
Considering that you posted a smiley face with that comment, I'm going to assume you were just being sarcastic.
As a side note: I generally hate the "oh-he's-a-fanboy" comments because it means the person saying that doesn't have a good rebuttal to what the other person they are alluding to has said.
Back on topic:
Anyways, I agree with Benjamin's comment about CCP taking their time. CCP has always been known to do that for the past nine years and they have improved on being careful and patient since the Crucible Expansion for Eve. CCP will not hurry in any way whatsoever if doing so would result in mistakes that should've otherwise been fixed earlier. They did that once with the Incarna Expansion and they will certainly not ever do that again. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.02 20:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:"CCP is looking at if they could have simple DUST corps, with chat channels. They understand the importance of corps, and are looking at a concept called "simple corps", with greatly streamlined management. Those might be part of a betarelease, or they might just have NPC/FW corps for people to join. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group."
pg. 71 |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.02 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
I suggest everyone to bookmark this post in their browser and download and safe the CSM minutes for future reference in case more noobs keep asking or jump to conclusions. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.02 23:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
ryan valentine wrote:Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS. The 'District Control' stuff not coming online until the kinks are worked out on SiSi makes total sense but not allowing me to consolidate my assets between the two platforms is lame.
This was the whole selling point for Dust, just to remind you. Lets not pretend like an additional tab under corp management is some monumental undertaking. The fluid exchange of isk and assets between Eve and Dust was the whole basis of the meta-game and don't give me that crap about Eve players having godlike wealth being detrimental to Dust. Postponing financial integration will create an issue here where there doesn't need to be one. Not allowing Dusters to impact on Sov assures a gigantic disparity in isk distribution, why pay premiums for Dusters if they have no impact on anything. Allowing Dusters to play at least some role on Sov issues assures Dusters of large boat loads of isk and will quickly equalize the financial disparity. Whereas forcing us to fight for npc payouts for two years will make us all so comparatively broke ass we will end up the pawns of the established Eve Corps.
The only way we are going to see premium payouts is going to be through player contracts. There isn't a mercenary Corp in Eve that will undock for less than a billion isk, many many many times what the best paying npc contracts pay. And that's the minimum. Not too mention that we can't even grind for easy money since we will more or less always be fighting other players with varying degrees of success. Even as things stand now in the beta it is possible to win your fight and lose money, forcing us to continue in this vein for another 2 years is preposterous.
(Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)
Reponse:
Quote:
"CCP is looking at if they could have simple DUST corps, with chat channels. They understand the importance of corps, and are looking at a concept called "simple corps", with greatly streamlined management. Those might be part of a betarelease, or they might just have NPC/FW corps for people to join. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group."
pg. 71
Also:
Quote:
The CSM asked about joining player corps in the late 2012 release. CCP said that wasn't currently on the schedule. They don't want to stick something in that would break EVE, and are worried that EVE corps with role management and voting would be too much for DUST players.
pg. 71
[...]
CCP asked CSM for feedback on DUST corporations, and what the CSM's preferred vision for them would be. The options presented were:
1) Unified corps, where DUST and EVE corps are the same thing, including allowing DUST players to be CEOs of EVE corps.
2) A special DUST division of a regular EVE corporation, where the DUST players would have some autonomy from the parent corporation.
3) Entirely separate DUST and EVE corporations but allowing contracts/alignment between them or allow DUST corps to join EVE alliances.
The CSM and CCP discussed people's desire to easily manage DUST and EVE players in the future, especially moving ISK/AUR between the two if/when that is allowed. CCP has had people ask them about multiboxing DUST and EVE.
Kelduum was in favor of allowing both DUST corps and allowing DUST players into EVE corps, with much limited roles and whatnot. The entire CSM said that having some sort of corporation at launch of DUST was critical, even if it wasn't the eventual ideal structure.
Alekseyev: Don't punish DUST corps with the EVE corp UI.
pg. 72
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Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.02 23:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rhadiem wrote:Unit-775 wrote:Typical
CSM 7 is 0.0 alliance dominated.
0.0 alliances have a two sided face,
They brag like hell about how great they are, and on the other side the whine like little kids when something is threatening their 0.0 playstyle.
I hope we get our own CSM.
I think Dust will get it's own CSM. 0.0 alliances are kinda EVE's favorite though. They fight for sov, stir up drama, toy with the economy, amass tons of players.. basically keep things interesting. I'd love to see all these POS/starbase changes and I'm not even in an alliance. I'm actually excited we'll be doing faction war first. I hope we can at least start Dust mini corps within faction though, to give unity outside faction, and be able to gather and use expensive resources.
This ^
Even if Dust mercs get their own CSM or their own seat in the Eve CSM, the representative of that seat(s) will more than likely be a null-sec merc player with null-sec influence which is part of the game and ok with CCP. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.03 00:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
@ryan
I understand what you mean, but CCP needs to be careful with this. If they implement "simple corps" (hopefully) then you would have something to work with. CCP, as noted on the CSM minutes, just doesn't want to go all the way and apply everything too quickly. Also noted is that CCP doesn't want to scare newbies with all these complex corp management tools that Eve has. I mean, how often do you run into a Guild or Clan in other first person shooters whose management system dictates director roles, CEOs, asset management, standings management, shares given to directors, etc.? Do you really want to overwhelm new players who never even touched Eve with all that stuff?
Of course, this is assuming that they might implement "simple corps" instead of the full-blown complex corp. Remember that the CSM Minutes posted here are dated back several months. A lot of things would change by now depending on our input and how it will turn out in the end.
At this point, instead of being distraught by this, you should be happy that CCP is at least trying to be careful as this is something that has implications that can affect both the Eve and DUST economies as well as sovereignty mechanics and PI. So don't blame them for being extra careful. You would no doubt do the same if you were in their shoes and you had to worry about anything going wrong that might hurt vision of Eve/Dust. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.03 21:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
ryan valentine wrote:carl von oppenheimer wrote:ryan valentine wrote:
When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous.
What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something. My mistake  .. I was reading back through the history of the Eve expansions on wiki and it seemed to imply that Sov wars broke out pretty quickly. Apologies for the misinformation. I am guessing then, that the Corp management UI was also relatively simple back then as well? I feel the arguments regarding the UI are a bit disingenuous since it has evolved into 'Empire Management' over the years, which is understandably more complex than running a simple player organization.
Carl is right about how Eve was back then. And yes, Eve was far less complicated back then as it was today. It took Eve some time to get really complicated because CCP was trying to mitigate code errors (which still exist to this day) that could result in an exploit.
One case in point was the starbase (POS) management system. A few years ago, CCP found out that a number of players were using an exploit that was basically a quirk in the mechanics that allowed POS users to produce more materials out of nothing. CCP then began a campaign called "UNHOLY RAGE" in which all starbases that have been found to be using such exploit were destroyed instantly. The owners of said starbases were found guilty of using the exploit.
There were also some glitches that plenty of experienced corp managers already know about that took a while to fix.
How I interpreted the CSM Minutes is not that CCP wants to just stick to "simple corps" forever. I figure that maybe CCP is just taking it slow and introduce the rest of the complicated management tools later on once everything is settled.
And yes, Sovereignty as it is in Eve did not exist until the Dominion Expansion. Up until then, sovereignty was determined more by the placement of POS structures rather than by some TCU (Territorial Control Unit). This resulted in the use of what many alliances call Dik Stars because such POS structures were placed and fitted for maximum resistance and have no purpose being there other than to create a distraction. Think of them as SPAM on steroids. That changed when the new sovereignty mechanics came in which added to the complexity of the management of territories.
As you can see, corp management in Eve had to take baby steps.
Also, let us not forget that these CSM minutes are old by several months. That means even the core mechanics will change. And yes, even the core mechanics can be adjusted. They are not something CCP just makes and forgets about it. They fix it and improve it when needed. Therefore, I can anticipate that corp management will be made complicated as demand for such features grow and as CCP sees that the economy and game is ready for these "complex" tools. They are simply learning from their past experience with Eve.
In other words, just be patient. It took Eve Online 9 years to get to where it is now and even then it is still not finished. In fact, CCP referred to Eve as being on permanent beta. Don't expect Dust to be complete and full on day one.
PS: I'm less concerned about newbies understanding corp management, but I am hugely concerned about seeing mistakes pop up if everything was thrown in at once. CCP tried that once and look where that got them. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.03 23:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
ryan valentine wrote:I agree Tosch .. entirely. It is my hope that since the Corp tab is there on our menu they have realized what a mistake it would be to give us nothing. As I said it was dismaying to hear that they weren't even considering it as recently as two months ago.
What are your thoughts on Dusters having no impact at all on Sov (even within the FW systems which has no real impact on the player alliances)? I think that's bs myself.
On sovereignty? Well, I'm not surprised that CCP is not adding this first. Sovereignty is quite tricky to balance.
You have to consider that most alliances don't look at planets as important assets to defend because they are currently not needed to gain sovereignty in the system. They are seen as nothing more than a passive source of income or a secondary source fuel for POS structures. Such fuel can already be bought in Jita and shipped to 0.0 via secure cyno routes with escorts. This is why null-sec alliances don't see planets as important to conquer. The players living in high-sec space harvesting said resources are already doing that for them. It's just a matter shipping which can be cheaper and faster.
And this is just regarding planetary interaction.
If planets will be required to control sovereignty in null-sec, this would have to be very careful. Every star system on average has about 3-4 planets and there are well over thousands of null-sec systems. Will CCP require conquest of every planet per system or just a set percentage of planets per system to gain sovereignty in addition dealing with TCUs and SBUs that Eve has? What about the systems that are already claimed? If conquering a planet in a system is needed to retain sovereignty, that would make every system vulnerable to attack while the alliance has to scramble to hire new mercs to take those planets and retain sovereignty. And considering that DUST will not have that many players at first, the pool of available mercs will be small while demand shoots through the roof like a Skyfire Cannon shooting at a Moros. It would be just like a labor shortage. Until enough Dust players join, null-sec alliances will have a tough time finding needed help. Not to mention the fact that a Dust corp might switch sides if the enemy pays them better.
What about time zones? Not everyone wakes up at the time. And with the limited number of players at launch, finding help that is awake at the moment will be extremely tough unless console players truly hold up to the stereotype that they can stay up day and night all jacked up with 5-Hour Energy and Red Bull.
Eve Online's population was a lot smaller back then. It was unheard of to see 100,000 players join Eve. They are now at about 400,000-500,000 players and counting.
Until we have enough Dust players, null-sec alliances will be screwed if Dust is allowed to impact sovereignty on day one.
...
But then again, that would also be funny. I like to see what would happen and how panicky the power blocs get when they can't find enough help from Dust.
But again, we have to consider possible exploits and bugs that could emerge if CCP were to implement it on day one.
Now, I could be wrong and we might see a flood of players ranging in the hundreds of thousands coming to Dust who never heard of Eve Online. Even then, CCP has to make sure the mechanics don't bring in any bugs that can be exploited and thus damage the economy. As you can see, the economy is also an important factor to consider.
I know, I'm bummed out too that Dust won't get to affect sovereignty warfare this year (but later on). But I'm at least glad that CCP is being careful first.
As for faction warfare, that alone in Eve Online is already effecting the boundaries of the four npc empires. That was the whole point of the Inferno Expansion because FW players wanted their effort to have a meaningful impact on their territory. And since low-sec is effected by FW players as well, we should at least see our impact made to low-sec dwellers. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
@Ryan
Don't get CCP wrong. They want full interaction between both games. It's just that they want to do it slowly. If you read the CSM Minutes, you will see that they intend to include null-sec interaction later on. They are just doing it in steps. They have always done this with Eve Online for years and they will surely do the same thing to Dust. Let's also not forget that CCP is a small company and they don't have vast resources like Infinity Ward, EA Games, Epic Games, Blizzard, etc. to get everything done all at once. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.05 00:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
@Ryan
I would actually support the idea of making PI materials worth fighting over. Of course, the resources are thin and limited in high-sec space but are plentiful in low-sec space where most faction warfare occurs and even more abundant in null-sec. But the impact of PI as a resource is something that is left to be pondered.
As of right now, you need PI materials to create a single POS. I tried it myself using multiple alts and I discovered just living on PI alone can still bring in enough materials to make a POS with the exception of having to buy about a few units of Capital Construction Parts that hardly cost me several million ISK. The trick is managing those colonies to ensure that you have a steady supply chain. Quite a ton of math is involved here. On top of that, you have to be hauling boat loads of materials from one planet to another.
A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed).
Not only that, as an industrialist living in low-sec, I would also have to worry about outlaws looking for me as I am hauling P4 parts worth millions of ISK.
Then you have to take into account that NPC customs offices in low-sec can be destroyed and replaced with POCOS (player-owned customs offices) and then tax the user of the colonies a lot of ISK or set the tax to 0% if the colony is theirs. If PI can be affected by Dust in terms of production efficiency at least in low-sec at least, then the Dust mercs will have a bargaining chip because industrial corps will always worry about efficiency especially if the mercs control enough planets.
But that is still to be confirmed or determined. Even then, balance must be found. Thankfully, Eve Online has the singularity test server so that everyone can help test it out before it goes live. A couple of years ago, CCP hinted that PI would one day include the ability to allow one PI colony to attack a another, but I think CCP jokingly mentioned the infamous word "SOON(tm)" in their statement. Sooooooooo............ >_> |
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Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.05 01:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
ryan valentine wrote:@Tosch
The feedback is welcome .. as I said I have never tried it. I take it those materials are used in Capital Ship production and the building of Outposts as well?
Capital Ships are entirely different beast... literally. Capital ships need materials gathered from moons for actual production.
So far, they seem to impact both POS and Outpost production and a little bit of POS fuels. According to the Evelopedia:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Control_Tower_Small_Blueprint <---BPO for a small Caldari Control Tower
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente_Administrative_Outpost_Platform_Blueprint <---BPO Gallente Administrative Outpost Platform (an egg)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Blueprints:Components:Station_Components <---BPOs for Station Components (notice the parts needed - PI products).
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Manufacture_&_Research:Materials:Planetary_Materials <---List of Planetary Materials by type.
So far, it doesn't seem that anyone can acquire these materials in any other way besides PI. If they did, it was long gone since the Tyrannis Expansion. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rasatsu wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed). You don't sound much like a seasoned industrialist then... Cause if you were seasoned you wouldn't be setting up resource gathering of disparate raw materials. There's a limit on the number of planets each character can use, and logistics is a large part of the time spent on PI. Each command center has CPU/PG limits that means it is most efficient to produce P0->P1 (in the case of a planet with good deposits of a single resource) or P0->P2 (when you have decent deposits of two resources that make something). When looking at logistics beyond that you have several barriers that induce ISK and opportunity cost. Those include taxes on export from planets, moving cargo between planets and between alts. So if you are producing P4 components you likely aren't using the most resource rich planets in the area you operate, and/or dedicate some planets to P0->P3 production which severely reduces efficiency due to CPU/PG being dedicated to the last step of the conversion and having long logistics chains on a planet is expensive.
Wrong. I am a seasoned industrialist. As for the limit, that doesn't matter to me when I have two accounts with three ALTs each and each alt has at least five planets to manage. I have pulled it off with success in high security space. I quit because it was tiresome hauling materials and calculating needed materials. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
PS: not to mention having to log into six different ALTs two or three times a day. |
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