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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13266
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Posted - 2016.11.02 02:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are ways to do high damage + high DPS without breaking a game and invalidating other roles.
Example: ULTRAMARINE.
When the devastators in PvP are running around they have to use short, often inaccurate bursts or smaller blasts. When they lock down and brace, sacrificing mobility they are able to lay down pain at the cost of slow turning and vulnerability to flankers, especially jump troops.
The heavy plasma cannon could one-shot enemies, but the charge mechanic for doing so was akin to a forge gun shot.
The heavy bolter was death on a cracker at long range... if you brace.
It all comes down to designing the role with the weapons in mind, and looking at how they should logically be vulnerable. Bulky, unwieldy weapons should be deadly at their intended ranges, sure. But that doesn't mean that a heavy suit should be able to universally respond to threats closer than an HMG's medium range, or that cornering in CQC should be simple.
The high HP = low DPS falls apart in FPS games and glass cannon tends to work phenomenally well in most FPS.
Balancing by tank/dps/healer falls apart in most games. Setting suits up by what their military role might be makes more sense. Heavies big firepower, big tank. Downsides?
Slow, cannot disengage, which means every encounter is "all or nothing."
Poor maneuverability: cannot sidestep, engage cover as effectively, and doesn't corner well.
Inaccurate, wild fire when moving: creates a situation where recoil, weapon shake or flaring/heat makes it hard to engage targets at longer ranges efficiently, requiring heavies to get "too close" to engage.
Long range, accurate fire requires immobility. You wanna play long range fire support? You're going to be exposed. Your nickname is sniper bait.
Just ideas, nothing really refined much. But those are directions I would look at for heavies. To make them a support suit rather than a mainline fighter were I to take a shot at design.
But heavies aren't traditional "tanks" because they cannot force opponents to pay attention to them so the faster, more blasty enemies can tear them apart.
But you can make them dependent upon support infantry by making them vulnerable to flankers.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13267
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Posted - 2016.11.02 06:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
Long range, accurate fire requires immobility. You wanna play long range fire support? You're going to be exposed. Your nickname is sniper bait.
So Siege Mode?
Nah, that would imply your defenses get better. What I'm implying is that for heavy weapons to be brought to bear, with full efficiency especially if Sentinels are a support class by definition and concept (they are so far as I understand) there needs to be a sacrifice of some kind. I personally believe (YMMV, and I dunno how Rattati intends to resolve this conundrum overall) that rather like a modern machinegun, or SMAW (Marine rocket launcher used as an infantry bunker-buster like fifteen years ago), or Mortar, or what have you there needs to be a weakness that goes with it.
I believe heavy weapons should never be fully independent of squad support, even if you can one-man them. Heavy weapons have always been weapons to support infantry in one way or another, be that by suppressive fire from behind or above friendly infantry, or flanking fire? How about putting vehicles in the hurt-locker and discourage tanks from roaring "I AM AN UNSTOPPABLE GOD! COWER BEFORE ME!" to popping aircraft out of the sky.
But the common thread here is that these weapons never run unsupported. they can't run unsupported. I've tried to maneuver an M-240 Golf model medium machinegun (loaded) like a rifle. Hehehehe, Jesus I cannot express just how much that DOES NOT WORK. It's a four-foot long, unwieldy beast that weighs about 25 pounds unloaded, with another 15-20 pounds of ammunition hanging off the left side in disintegrating links.
I feel that for Sentinels to be balanced, there ability to act completely independently of teammates (except for Logi, and I feel that the old fatty+logi combo should never automatically mean a win button, even with three rep tools and a hot trigger) should be sharply curtailed. Not making them nosebleed murder fighters, and not by giving them some magic module that makes them harder to kill if they stop moving. They've, historically, been hard enough to kill without any such added handicap. Unless something changes, they don't need that.
As an example, if you brace your weapon, and you go full-on rock and roll on the enemy, then you're probably doing it on medium to long range. but when you brace, you turn slower. The transition from standing to braced and back should, ideally have it's own animation, and scouts and fast-movers should be able to look and go "hey now, that guy's a turtle, let's go flip him on his ass." That's assuming that the mechanic even gets used.
But as a counterpoint, let's use the HMG on the move as an example: If you're not braced, you're probably fighting recoil, your arms aren't locked, the thing is vibrating like a rock-crusher and you're trying to control it while trundling along. Ok, sure, you can hit someone and do lots of damage, if they're in shotgun range coming at your face. The smart ones are going to duck behind cover and get behind you, or back up shooting you to keep out of the short range until you get frustrated and brace, then bolt around something to stab you while you're locking down or locked.
I love sentinels. Absolutely love them. they remind me of the days when I was actually training to use heavy weapons. But the way they were balanced for most of the game's lifespan really did make all of the native weaknesses irrelevant. It also made them hella unfair to deal with. Never mind the general playerbase's conception of "Point defense" has little to nothing to do with the actual definition of the word. "Point Defense" has nothing, I cannot say this enough, NOTHING to do with holding an objective by sitting on it and shooting anyone who arrives. Point-Defense is actively denying opponents the ability to easily APPROACH the target area, period. If they're on the objective fighting, point-defense has utterly failed.
Back in beta they had a turn speed restriction. This was unfair as hell because the HMG was only effective at ranges where people could literally strafe circles around you shooting you in the side of the head. If they'd been made longer range and kept that turning penalty I feel the HMG would have eventually been in a better place over the long run. Because the fatties would have been brutal long-range fire, and exposed a lot so they could keep their eyes on an open field around them to spot the bastards with shotguns and knives coming for their souls. and if they let literally anyone get close enough to beat their turn speed? You ded.
There's a LOT of ways to make heavies in general more fair and fun to deal with that doesn't include neutering them. The weight idea isn't a bad one, but I dunno if that one is a viable method at this time, we'd have to ask a dev, and I doubt even the CPM nerds (myself included, because I'm one of the nerdiest nerds who ever nerded) will get a straight answer until the devs have something to test and show.
By the way, Nomed Deeps, excellent discussion, thanks for adding another potential way to go.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13269
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Posted - 2016.11.02 23:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
What we're all dancing around, jack, is a desire to see suits balanced around their roles.
Example: i would like to see heavies as heavy duty fire SUPPORT, and not a primary slayer class. I want to see it be devastating as a squads backup.
I'd like to see assaults and commandos be the primary light and heavy infantry.
And so on, and so forth.
It's a desire to have a solid path to success, that with creativity and fitting savvy, can be adjusted to your own playstyle.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13274
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Posted - 2016.11.08 04:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Jack Boost wrote: heavy is still underpowered That's news to me, Heavies didn't ever seem to be in too much of a bad place if played well. Slow speed was almost entirely negated by vehicles, and the turn speed was increased quite a bit which made tracking scouts fairly easy. I'd welcome higher potential HP if it meant a more stationary attack platform.
This is kinda my point.
Well, close to it.
If Heavies have enough firepower and armor to be a force to be noticed (and worth using) on the battlefield, then they need to lose something equally important.
My choice would be the ability to solo casually, or the ability to just have a logi buddy stuck to your butt all the time. I would like sentinels to be a squad support platform that needs the support of a full squad to fully take advantage of their power, an easy way to enforce that is by making them the most vulnerable to flankers when they are at their most deadly.
My riddle for heavy weapons:
"Which way should you approach a heavy weapon?"
"From any direction other than where they are aiming."
You should have serious issues if you try to out-firepower them head-on, as it's the kind of fight he's MADE for. but if you decide to attack from the sides or rear, he should have problems rapidly responding to you.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13276
|
Posted - 2016.11.09 18:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:We're lucky your average pub player in Dust was really stupid.
All they ever did was pound the frontline with assault suits, when sentinels would have worked far better.
Only if you had sentinels maxed and knew exactly what you were doing.
Most players starting out who tried sentinels early on were really soured by the experience. Its not nearly as forgiving a class as most people claim. Most players cannot find a dedicated logi tether.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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