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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2016.02.11 18:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
o7 fellow dusters and CCP.
I must say it's been one hellva ride. Never before have I found a game that could captivate me as Dust 514 did. I dedicated far more time (and money) to this game than I would like to admit. And it was fun for a time. But I think everyone saw this coming, even if you didn't care to admit to it.
In truth, the game died soon after release. It never stood a chance on its own. The concept was simply brilliant, the premise sound, yet the execution was absolutely terrible. I guess this is what happens when a bunch of nerds that have experience with an mmorpg attempt to make an FPS, two wildly different games.
But it goes beyond that. I personally don't think this game as a whole was a good game to start with. While some ideas sound fantastic, they don't always pan out in reality.
How would one categorize Dust 514? Personally I've always viewed it as an RPGFPS. Which sounds absolutely amazing to me as an RPG and FPS enthusiast. But honestly Dust always leaned more to the FPS side with nothing more than RPG character development.
When put like that, the result is an absolute atrocity that was Dust 514. In what MMORPG are the newest, least developed character literally thrown against the most developed characters in the game. You can point to a game like WoW where low level characters on PVP servers would be pitted up against top end characters. Or a game like EVE where no one is safe anywhere.
Yet in both of those games you do have relative areas of safety where you can truly enjoy character development content. Not to mention the fact that there was an entire world to explore, events to be had, dungeons to conquer, ect ect ect. Those are the things that MAKE an RPG.
When I consider other RPG games I've played over my years, Final Fantasy series, WoW, EVE, D&D (Dark Sun anybody?) and countless other small time RPG games, I find it difficult to compare RPG elements in those games to RPG elements in Dust. As there are few.
What I'm saying here is that more than anything Dust 514 was an FPS first and foremost. And it did poorly in that regard, and as a result the RPG side suffered. Or one could say the FPS side suffered due the the RPG influences.
So, let's focus on the FPS side and why it failed. So I point you to some of my favorite FPS games of old, like Half Life, Counterstrike, America's Army, and Call of Duty.
What elements make a great FPS? The most obvious that Dust lacked was accessibility. When I load up into an FPS for the first time, I go in knowing that for the most part I will be on par with the other players right of the bat. I only really need to be good at one thing to enjoy my experience, moving the sticks and pulling a trigger.
The first gun I start with can just as easily kill as the last gun I unlock. Character abilities and weapons don't make you OP but simply change HOW you play not how WELL you play. That's a key difference lost upon many who played Dust. In Dust I hoped into my tank and devastated entire teams. Not because I had better gun game but because I had the skills invested and the currency to spend.
And that was always a new players turn off to this game ( aside from the poor graphics, bad frame rate, ect ect), the fact that it played like an FPS yet attempted to be an RPG. When I played the latest COD BO3, my KDR was at least a 1.0 (And going up as we speak). When I played Dust 514 for the first time, I had something of a NEGATIVE KDR. And this went on for MONTHS.
There were numerous problems with gameplay but the biggest has always been the skill gap. Some will still argue that skill trumps character progression, but any logical sane person can look at the numbers and see the obviously huge advantages a fully developed character has over an underdeveloped character.
And the thing is, the only way to develop a character is to fight at a disadvantage for a long while. In NO GAME should this ever be a thing. When we play an FPS, we PLAY FOR THE COMPETITION. I play for that adrenaline rush that only comes when I play players on or above my level. In a game like COD this is easy to come by, yet in Dust competition took a back seat to the RPG side.
In the end though, yes I did stick it out. I developed my character and am very satisfied with the results. I gave you more money than I have to any other game because I saw the potential a game like this has. Yet I am disappointed that you as developers never came to appreciate that.
I know I'm coming off pretty negative here, but that's the reality. I know you had your limitations with the aging console but you saw this coming for a VERY long time now. I've offered many critiques in the past, many bad with a few I consider golden. One point I've always stressed is that you never came to understand what a good FPS is.
You can make a great RPG but you fail with an FPS because you never came to grasp what an FPS is. Ever did you neglect competitive FPS elements in lou of the RPG elements. You can balance all you want, but Dust was an FPS first and foremost.
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2016.02.11 18:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
But don't get me wrong that a true FPSRPG won't work, it's just that you never truly implemented that concept.FPS and RPG
can mesh, but you have to appreciate the differences between the two and give each a place to shine. You can have the RPG
character development but players NEED to be matched based on their characters point of development.
You dress up an FPS all you want with RPG elements, but unless you provide a truly balanced environment for players at all stages to enjoy, you get a flop that is Dust 514.
Not to say there are probably a number of other ideas or concepts that were lacking that lead to it's failure. But I've always felt it was the way the FPS CLASHED with the RPG when the two should MESH.
o7 CCP, I have faith in you as a company of developers. You brought about an incredible idea with some very revolutionary
concepts. I truly hope you have learned from your experiences. Don't go about treating your next game like another EVE. An
FPS isn't a "Sandbox" of that type.
Players need a bit of fluff, especially FPS gamers (they don't like overly complicated concepts). Else you will just end up with another niche game.
In any case GG fellas, and I appreciate what you gave to us. I can give you all the negativity in the world, yet I stuck with it for several years, basically as the only game to be played in my mind. You had something there and still do, here's to hoping you figure it out! |
Living Rock 523
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2016.02.11 22:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:In what MMORPG are the newest, least developed character literally thrown against the most developed characters in the game.
+1
From the outside looking in it is beyond hilarious what new players face when beginning Dust. I think I've said before it's like an NFL team playing a middle school football team and not holding back at all.
From the inside looking out it was a nightmare, and the thing that kept me going for the first few months was the people I met, not the game itself. A small part of me wants to acknowledge it did build a bit of character, but insanely brutal. |
P14GU3
WarRavens
1
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Posted - 2016.02.11 23:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
He is right though. Every RPG has had a way to divide the elites from the carebears. In the early days, games like UO were all kill-zone and few safe zones. Cities were the only safe place in UO for example. Carebears would cry anytime they were ganked by PKs, and eventually the devs developed trammel, a seperate facet where PvP was not allowed ANYWHERE. While this brought an influx of players to the game, the PvP aspect slowly died. After 5 years or so, the PvP zone was all but dead.
Games like EvE-O improved on the mechanics. They gave a hisec (safezone,) lowsec (entry level pvp,) and a nullsec (anything goes hardcore mode.) On top of that, the hi-value npcs and materials were only found in most dangerous areas, giving incentives to go there.
Dust has added none of this, which is vital to any MMORPGs survival.
'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - 'Sault GK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Sentinal MK.0
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Living Rock 523
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2016.02.11 23:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
I definitely agree, though I always did at the very least understand the concerns that came with dividing the player base too much. But I'm sure solutions could have been found.
But yeah, in the new Dust if I'm out doing some non combat stuff like mining or something, as a new player, I imagine it would be nice to not have to worry about 4 HAVs and the Molden Heath Police Department or Nyan San dropping out of the sky and mud hole stomping me. |
Shaun Iwairo
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
511
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Posted - 2016.02.12 00:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Living Rock 523 wrote:...in the new Dust if I'm out doing some non combat stuff like mining or something, as a new player, I imagine it would be nice to not have to worry about 4 HAVs and the Molden Heath Police Department or Nyan San dropping out of the sky and mud hole stomping me.
This is the sort of risk that miners face in Eve and IMO is an important part of the New Eden sandbox. These are also risks that a new player trying out PvP faces. There are mechanics in place, however, that allow an alert miner or low SP PvP'er to evade these sorts of things (watching local chat, D-scanning and staying aligned) so they can live to mine another day or continue their hunt for more appropriate targets.
These mechanics were completely absent from Dust which I think was a big part of the reason that CCPs attempt at trying to combine the +Stat mechanics from Eve with a matchmade FPS just didn't work out.
E: Also great post OP. If you're interested in the numbers around the skill gap check out the link in my sig.
Something is killing new player retention.
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
The-Office
2
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Posted - 2016.02.15 21:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
They attempted to make an RPG Shooter, but like I said they made a Shooter, with RPG character development.
Dust was basically a COD shooter with RPG character development. Just thinking of destiny as an example, as it's an actual RPG Shooter (Not a great one mind you). It gives you an area to PVP and utilize your character development (gear as well as skills) but it also give you an area to grow and work on your skills in a PVE area.
Dust would have been amazing, if it just had the other half of the RPG. PVE is crucial to an RPG's success. No one would have batted an eye at the imbalances in PvP if they had an area to grow their character that wasn't the brick wall called a Pub match. No competitive environment is fun if you can't compete at the same level as your peers.
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Tacojr2000 Gonzalez
0.P.
6
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Posted - 2016.02.15 21:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
I also played Americas Army. Great game!
" I'm Moist" Tacojr2000
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
The-Office
2
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Posted - 2016.02.15 21:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tacojr2000 Gonzalez wrote:I also played Americas Army. Great game!
Sure do miss pipeline. |
SHERIFF joe arapio
0ther.Haven
524
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Posted - 2016.02.15 21:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tacojr2000 Gonzalez wrote:I also played Americas Army. Great game!
You like to play Army? How about I lay down and you blow the hell outta me
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
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Tacojr2000 Gonzalez
0.P.
6
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Posted - 2016.02.15 21:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
MOUT Mckenna pipelines and sf hodpital were my fav maps.
" I'm Moist" Tacojr2000
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Happy Violentime
1
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Posted - 2016.02.16 01:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
"In Dust I hoped into my tank and devastated entire teams. Not because I had better gun game but because I was in a tank."
FTFY
I obviously didn't bother to fix your spelling, cos calling in any RDV delivery needs a bit of hope. |
Ralden Caster
Random Gunz
The-Office
399
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Posted - 2016.02.16 02:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
The reason why the current implementation of skills did not work out is because Dust never really was meant to be the lobby shooter that it is. Given that CCP has spoken of how they wished for a more sandbox-style game where you could drop in on different places where the danger would equal the reward, the current skill system could have worked.
The newer portion of the player base could fulfill contracts in a secure part of the system, while the protostomping vets could duke it out at the edges of space where law is defined by who is standing at what end of the barrel.
EVE: PENIX
THE HARDEST FPS COMING ON PC
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Shaun Iwairo
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
537
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Posted - 2016.02.16 02:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:They attempted to make an RPG Shooter, but like I said they made a Shooter, with RPG character development.
Dust was basically a COD shooter with RPG character development. Just thinking of destiny as an example, as it's an actual RPG Shooter (Not a great one mind you). It gives you an area to PVP and utilize your character development (gear as well as skills) but it also give you an area to grow and work on your skills in a PVE area.
Dust would have been amazing, if it just had the other half of the RPG. PVE is crucial to an RPG's success. No one would have batted an eye at the imbalances in PvP if they had an area to grow their character that wasn't the brick wall called a Pub match. No competitive environment is fun if you can't compete at the same level as your peers.
Destiny actually has separate PvP modes that either utilize your character development (Iron Banner, Trials of Osiris) or equalize players stats (Regular Crucible, Crimson Doubles). Even with its guaranteed huge playerbase, Bungie knew it would be silly to only include the progression-advantages-enabled mode for PvP.
Something is killing new player retention.
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Shaun Iwairo
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
537
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Posted - 2016.02.16 02:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ralden Caster wrote:The reason why the current implementation of skills did not work out is because Dust never really was meant to be the lobby shooter that it is. Given that CCP has spoken of how they wished for a more sandbox-style game where you could drop in on different places where the danger would equal the reward, the current skill system could have worked.
The newer portion of the player base could fulfill contracts in a secure part of the system, while the protostomping vets could duke it out at the edges of space where law is defined by who is standing at what end of the barrel.
100% on the money. Also with a sandbox PvP mode, if you found a district/planet was too heavily stacked with vets sporting much bigger stat boosts than you, you'd be able to jump back to your warbarge to find a more appropriate district/planet.
But. Spreading the playerse out across differrent sec statuses does rely on a certain critical mass in player numbers (so PvP encounters happen often enough to keep the game interesting), which is something that CCP can never guarantee. It would be pretty risky to implement this (by itself) as a way to allow new players a smooth transition into the game because if the numbers aren't there it doesn't work at all.
Something is killing new player retention.
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