DUST Search - A look at the battlefield (Sentinels)

Alena Asakura wrote:

Very good analysis, OP!

I particularly want to focus on the "META" you talked about - Jumpy Assaults.

They have what I call an "I-win-button". They come largely in three flavours - jumpy shotguns, jumpy mass drivers and jumpy nova knives. Except perhaps for the last one, there's virtually no skill involved with these shenanigans. The shotguns are just really point and shoot and the addition of the jump makes them almost impossible to avoid. The nova knives are actually kind of scary but really quite talented in the way they seem to be able to do their tricks. I have to admire them, although I hate them with a vengeance. :)

But the jumpy mass drivers are just unreasonably unavoidable. They jump so you can't hit them, they fire while they're in the air so they have the advantage of height, and the damage they inflict has significant splash. They don't even have to be particularly accurate!

Yes, the jumpy assaults are a really nasty problem. Your analysis of them, and the specific statement that the jumpy attribute isn't even used for what it was intended, makes a very clear case for both removing the effect from the game and also never making such ill considered changes again.

Clearly, any changes to the game should be small, incremental, and extremely careful. Both here an in EvE, CCP often seems to make revolutionary rather than evolutionary changes and they always seem to result in some form of crisis, as well as FOTM problems. Revolutionary changes might be OK when you're developing a new game, but we're talking about a game or games which have been around for quite some time and players need for them to NOT change radically, other than with the introduction of something truly revolutionary. Any content already in the game should be largely left alone.

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Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 20:58:00 - [1] - Quote o7 Today I would like to direct your attention to the battlefields of dust! We often crunch numbers here in the forums, and speculate on what could be. Ideas about the weapons, dropsuits, and vehicles are generally derived from the performance stats gathered by CCP. However, I would like to offer another look from the field of battle itself! Now there are still numbers to crunch, but generally the field of battle offers a little more to work with. There's, as they say, the fog of war which can not be accounted for. Now, individual experiences may vary so keep in mind that this is just one mercs point of view backed by personal experiences and shared opinions of comrades on the field. Let's first get some ground rules laid! 1. Pubs, Factional Warfare, and Planetary Conquest are 3 completely different game modes! 2. I am in no way claiming to be the end all be all of Dust514. This is only my opinion. 3. Everyone's opinion is welcome! I believe our goals can be reached faster the more heads we have working on them. The Game's Meta The Meta of the game changes with updates, hotfix's, etc. We've had a rollercoaster of effects! If possible I would like to eliminate this yo yo effect that this game's Meta seems to go through. To give an example, we've had scout 514, several different OP weapon episodes varying from weapon to weapon, and periods where both weapons and dropsuits/vehicles seemed pointless. Currently the Meta is jumpy assaults. This continuing phenomena is caused by the changes being made by the Devs in an attempt to balance the game. The problem is 2 part. 1. We often seem to change things in mechanics without looking at the end effects on the battlefield. We add something to fix one thing so as to counter another without considering the effects on a 3rd or 4th party. 2. We go off of the stats of use of players. This has been proven to be not a stat to go on as it is clearly not 100% efficient. CCP arguably does a half decent job at listening to the community here in the forums. They do receive earned criticism for not listening at times, and I say earned because they have went against the voice of the community before,... it usually ends tragic?! My hope in the next update 1.3 is that CCP is taking into account both the data and battlefield account from the players. The latter seems ever so important because you CCP can get a feel for the Meta of the game much more than just reading stats. My Personal Experiences Recently With the addition of the revamped Myofibril Mod, the game has went completely left field of CCP Rattati's original plan to make the game more of a tactical shooter. To me when we say "tactical shooter' it means for all roles! Not just the assault role. This game is highly versatile in the uses of mods, suits, and vehicles, but all to often are the majority of roles on the battlefield made obsolete by the current Meta's Flavor of The Month, or Fit of the Month(FOTM). The game modes differ drastically when it comes to this as what is used in the pubs isn't used in Planetary Conquest. A player who plays heavy in Domination a large percentage of the time will not perform well in a PC match for a number of reasons. This needs to be looked at when considering balancing the games Meta. Some maps are more lenient on some play styles over others, which is fine in moderation. However, some maps in combination with the latest FOTM makes some players on the field completely obsolete! This is a problem as not every player has 100 mil SP to just respec into the latest and greatest FOTM?! Some players only have 20-40 mil SP into certain roles that they run, and that player and playstyle shouldn't be rendered useless because the Devs inadvertently nerfed you trying to buff something that the data said was unused?! This is something i'm greatly noticing on the battlefield. Certain roles are either being isolated to a certain section of the map, or left out of battle altogether. While others can be fielded almost anywhere, in every role, in any application. Is this what we want? The current Meta is "throw 3 jump mods on it" These fits seem to trump everything with no hard counter IMO. While guys have stated a number of things that "sometimes' works for them the overall consensus is there is no real hard counter. They get hit they jump over you, simple. They attack you from a jump, and continue to jump to avoid incoming fire. The mod isn't even used for what was the intended idea of reaching high places. Everyone still uses dropships! While one jumper isn't much of an issue, try fighting 16 at the same time?! The jump fits cover distance faster jumping than they do running?! They seem to be everywhere at once regardless of what tactics you use, and with no solid hard counter in sight every other fit is just cannon fodder for splash dmh?! The weakest Meta in the game right now "Sentinels" Clearly great for domination maps in bunkers of joy and killstreaks, they are nearly useless in PC application, and tend to hold the team back more than help in any skirnish map like Factional Warfare?! The fast jumpy fits simply out maneuver the slow heavy (Amarr and Gallente). The Min and Cal are shield based primarily, and relatively faster, but also stand not much more of a chance on the field in PC. Almost all the heavies I know have just adopted the AHMG as a last resort as the HMG and BHMG just overheat to quickly. It's almost a sad troll to watch as the tanked heavies get assaulted by multiple targets out of there ranged with no cover?! Thanks to the jumping mods there is no safe area where heavies have the upper hand except in domination bunker maps. In CQC you simply jump over them with splash dmg as they struggle to land hits, move out of the way, and inevitably overheat before achieving any successful dmg. If the sentinel does manage to strike significantly you simply leap to safety?! "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:12:00 - [2] - Quote I'm not saying that the heavy doesn't get lucky every now and then, but it shouldn't be luck?! The poor logi behind him has all but been removed from battle, and the most prominate logistics role on the field is the Gallente for scans, followed closely by the Amarr, then Minmatar, and finally the Caldari. They are in few number on the field as your team needs more assaults to counter the assaults?! The scouts die in high numbers as the assaults move just as fast lol! I remember saying this in a post before somewhere about how the min assault has replaced the scout on the field.... The Maps The maps in PC are fairly open maps and while scouts and assaults are prepared for almost any situation, the sentinel dropsuits are becoming a burden to apply. They need transport, links, ammo, support, etc., and they're not even killing the enemy dropsuits?! The HMG and variants are mostly only good at killing other sentinels. The assaults are out of range with rifles, or too fast with SG's, MD's, and PLC's in CQC. There are almost no bunkers that can't be broken by multiple scouts or min assaults with remotes, and your team as a whole loses overall team speed with every sentinel you add. This leaves players on your corp roster at a lost as a team member. He's great in one mode on two maps.... I will work on covering more of this in depth for every dropsuit, and also start an in depth look at vehicle application in PC. Thank you o7 "Anybody order chaos?"
PARKOUR PRACTIONER L0RDS 0F LEGI0N Damage LLC 4	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:20:00 - [3] - Quote First, praise all of the suns for acknowledging MA trumps scouts. Second, proposed buffs for heavies or HMGs? I have no freakin idea about heavies in general so are you propsing a buff to sents/HMGs, or... what? Outside of observation do you have any suggestions? In pain If my skills could match my rage & willpower...
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:25:00 - [4] - Quote PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: First, praise all of the suns for acknowledging MA trumps scouts. Second, proposed buffs for heavies or HMGs? I have no freakin idea about heavies in general so are you propsing a buff to sents/HMGs, or... what? Outside of observation do you have any suggestions? I don't want to sling ideas out just yet before receiving the input of the community. if they are feeling the same way, and there is a consensus, then I will try to first wait for 1.3... God save me... to see if CCP takes heed. If nothing happens for all suits, not just sentinels, that moves the battlefield as a whole closer to balance I will then ask for nerf?buff accordingly. I try to refrain from posting nerf/buff nowadays as those types of post have help get us in this predicament in the first place. "Anybody order chaos?"
PARKOUR PRACTIONER L0RDS 0F LEGI0N Damage LLC 4	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:30:00 - [5] - Quote Ahh discussion. Not used to that. I have noted seeing less sents on the field, wouldn't mind seeing a few more, outside of lag facility 2.0 & lag facility 1.0. Wish the MCC construction site was a map for PC, for ANYTHING FTM. Matari in game & out, Prof V in rage PSN Sil4ntChaozz cause the best chaozz is caused quietly Autistic cause reasons
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:34:00 - [6] - Quote Have to agree here. Only time I pull a sentinel is for forge use. And after a few forge rounds, melee from behind... Myo are destroying this game. It was funny for about two days. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
PARKOUR PRACTIONER L0RDS 0F LEGI0N Damage LLC 4	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:37:00 - [7] - Quote ^ Not even that long. Cries for nerfs appeared as soon as the myo buff dropped. Matari in game & out, Prof V in rage PSN Sil4ntChaozz cause the best chaozz is caused quietly Autistic cause reasons
Grease Spillett OSG Planetary Operations 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:38:00 - [8] - Quote Devadander wrote: Have to agree here. Only time I pull a sentinel is for forge use. And after a few forge rounds, melee from behind... Myo are destroying this game. It was funny for about two days. This is why. Somebody call for an exterminator? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx0bJCvSFeA
DJINN Heartreaper Negative-Feedback. 104	Posted - 2016.01.04 21:51:00 - [9] - Quote I'd remove jumping myos or limit the height tbh..as for heavies that's a tough one...Amarr is the most used due to hp/DMG and being repped..even in pc's throw down a few triage hives for him...personally I'd fix the other heavies to be on par with the Amarr first then go from there.. Maybe make it so only heavies and scouts can use myos? Anyways as it stands fix other heavies first, bhmg is good for 1v1, working as intended? I'd say after fixing the other heavy suits the hmg could use a slight buff to overheat I think range/rof/DMG are fine if they got a bonus to overheat or just buff the overheat Cal assault/scout/heavy/Python user o7
ROMULUS H3X research lab 930	Posted - 2016.01.04 22:12:00 - [10] - Quote I find Basic Heavies more interesting than Sentinels. The resistances are not alluring enough.... I figure if I am getting shot up good by multiple targets... I'm toast no matter how much resistance I could have with the Sentinel counterpart. FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 22:44:00 - [11] - Quote After shield buff, I expected to beastmode in my calsent.. Twas not to be. Now, all my calsent have three myo and a cardiac. And my calmando have all three colors... But I rarely use them. Same for my assault suits. Thought I could finally go full shield, and slowly they have shifted to speed meta.. This is mostly due to certain corporations going almost exclusively min-myo-mass. It's fairly common to run into at least 4 if not 8 (even in pubs, worse in fw) all bouncy min MD. I've had three cfw matches where ten or more enemies were jump fitted. There is no defense against that many. Period. No counter. No amount of good, or hardening, can turn that around. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
castba 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 23:00:00 - [12] - Quote Obvious thing to do is lower the heat build up for Hmg/bhmg. Also, ensuring that all Bhmg hits register. I also would be interested in seeing extenders and plates change from a static value to a percentage, perhaps also changing back to the old movement penalties. Changing the jump value on myos to half of the melee value would make for a more balanced module IMO. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
DJINN Heartreaper Negative-Feedback. 106	Posted - 2016.01.04 23:35:00 - [13] - Quote Devadander wrote: Have to agree here. Only time I pull a sentinel is for forge use. And after a few forge rounds, melee from behind... Myo are destroying this game. It was funny for about two days. They've watched one punch man =ƒÿå Silly Ratman one punch is an anime not meant to be in dust..maybe 3-4 punch man
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.04 23:43:00 - [14] - Quote Devadander wrote: After shield buff, I expected to beastmode in my calsent.. Twas not to be. Now, all my calsent have three myo and a cardiac. And my calmando have all three colors... But I rarely use them. Same for my assault suits. Thought I could finally go full shield, and slowly they have shifted to speed meta.. This is mostly due to certain corporations going almost exclusively min-myo-mass. It's fairly common to run into at least 4 if not 8 (even in pubs, worse in fw) all bouncy min MD. I've had three cfw matches where ten or more enemies were jump fitted. There is no defense against that many. Period. No counter. No amount of good, or hardening, can turn that around. I run Gallente sentinel, as all my dropsuits are Gallente as my ships are in Eve, and all it does is look awesome in my fitting inventory?! I run it in domination ofcourse, but in PC, when assigned to the role initially, I quickly switch to another role. The Gal sent can be set up a number of ways, but none are useful against speed/jump/punch fits. I've tried tank and dmg, speed with shields, and am now trying high rep and dmg. "Anybody order chaos?"
danthrax martin Bad Blueberries 725	Posted - 2016.01.05 00:10:00 - [15] - Quote OP, thanks for this post. I agree with the track your on. I miss doing constant PC's as a heavy, Looking to form raid alliance Will raid anyone =ƒñÿ=ƒÿ£=ƒñÿ Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.05 17:57:00 - [16] - Quote So I tried the Galsent with High rep in PC last night, and while it wasn't game breaking by any means, it performed better in my opinion than our previous attempts. Myself and my buddy sentinel Mileswide fingersdeep, CCP you gotta stop letting these names ride..., were running 1 Galsent ands 1 Amarr sent high reps. The Amarr has a higher base armor at 750, and 4 low slots to work with. My buddy Miles went with a speed/rep combo, the actual layout I don't know, and i'm sure dmg in the 1 high slot. He was able to do fairly well finishing off targets I was mangling, and ran the Boundless hmg. His survival rate was generally about the same as if he would've been tanked with a logi. The difference lied in the fact that now he was a single operator not requiring a logi to babysit him! He didn't have to worry about hooking up with the logi at all. I ran the Gal sent with 3x Complex reps and 2x Krins dmg mods. I also chose to go with the Six Kin Burst HMG and Sin Kin Sub. The krins dmg mods saved me isk on a suicidal heavy fit, but puts both sidearm and HMG at 1.08 dmg instead of just the HMG rocking 1.10. A fair trade to me! The Six Kin as i've stated before takes no prisoners in professional hands! The Gal sent makes the weapon it's own due to the 2x high slots, and the native speed and rep of the heavy makes it fast and rep enough to survive, move, and rep much better than previous builds. Now we still generally got REKT, but our teammates were able to perform much better not having to assign a logi to our backsides. The enemy was not prepared for the sentinels they encountered at all! This is still no answer to the completely unbalanced Meta, but we are trying to not go with FOTM and make the fits we have more viable on the battlefield. I will be trying a few more fits, and will update with progress from those fits, maps, and scenarios! o7 "Anybody order chaos?"
XxWarlordxX97 Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 4	Posted - 2016.01.05 18:43:00 - [17] - Quote I fully support this thread, the sent needs something to change to make it useful on the battlefield then just dying all the time to the jump assaults, scouts and assaults with the shotty 2-3 hitting you or nova knifes 1 hitting everything on the field. Armor tanked heavies are pathetic
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood 564	Posted - 2016.01.05 22:50:00 - [18] - Quote Sadly.... I gotta agree. I'm tired of seeing mobility tank... Cause damn that jump + sprint makes some people impossible to get. Now, I'm not gonna say the mylolflys are just silly.. Cause I use one on my armor tanked calAss (whenever there's extra reptool in squad... Makes me run them needles :3) to actually jump over railings, etc. This is good use of myflys... But others simply stack it to add an entire axis to their combat ability. It'll be a hard one to fix... But, you guys will find a way. Potential Pilot Proposal? Yes!
lamo guys Corrosive Synergy 171	Posted - 2016.01.06 00:57:00 - [19] - Quote Good post! One that was worth reading, good thought put into it and the truth. Don't blink it will be over quick
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.06 02:29:00 - [20] - Quote lamo guys wrote: Good post! One that was worth reading, good thought put into it and the truth. Thank you, As i've played this game throughout my time in the Eve Universe i've come to realized that no Dev will ever know this game better than us on the ground fighting it's battles and wars! I think the Devs realized this as well, and of the many things they've done right, putting the forums in place was on the top of that list. I like to take full advantage of the oppurtunity to utilize the forums, and responsibility in this community to help make arguably one of the best games we've ever played better! There is no game in FPS on par with dust, and since it's inception no FPS since (Titanfall, COD, Battlefield, Destiny, etc.) has been able to match the customization and depth of dust. There is no fictional universe as alive and vibrant as the Eve universe! So much to do, see, and experience! As a veteran player of Dust514 I find myself often answering mails about fits, questions in chats, and generally helping the understanding of the tactics/teamwork to fitting ratio of players who some I don't even know. They hit me up often, and i'm more proud of "help me mail" than i'll ever be of "hate mail". I now try to listen to the pulse of the community as a whole rather than my own issues in order to help the game progress in the right direction. Often mercs misunderstand my intentions, and think I mean to nerf them. On the contrary, I fully intend to reach the highest level of balance in all roles that we can achieve! This brings us closer to merging Eve, Dust514, and eventually Valkyrie into games truly connected in both market, combat, and community! I've chatted with Eve players and Dust players alike, and it is clearer then ever that true intergration is something that we all look forward to! For dust mercs the endless possibilities to fight throughout the universe in different environments and maps with this level of customization and meaning is the ultimate FPS experience! Achieving this, to me, is more important than protecting my FOTM?! For Eve players the universe is their playground, but they're playing with the handcuffs on?! They dream of the possibilities, as we do, to take to the stars in a new light! The ability to transport, deploy, and support ground troops in battle is a challenge well excepted when they first saw these videos..... https://youtu.be/eS4rAYrRHWc https://youtu.be/OSxSyv4LC1c https://youtu.be/Xnt1tTlnqfY These were the videos that capture my attention, and has kept me playing dust, and now eve, through the lag, OP weapons, FOTM, unfair advantages, stacked teams of vets, stacked timers, wars, bs mail, and everything else that has been thrown at me! So I focus my effort on helping pull this community together, train new players, and help old vets rediscover the meaning of what it is to be a merc in the Eve universe. This isn't Call of Duty, Battlefield, or any of the glamour show FPS's that are forgotten with time and re-created over and over with an ever growing price tag?! This is Dust514! The one and only, and while it seems to be struggling in it's early stages I have high hopes for the game that we say is dying! o7 "Anybody order chaos?"

Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 241	Posted - 2016.01.06 10:00:00 - [21] - Quote Very good analysis, OP! I particularly want to focus on the "META" you talked about - Jumpy Assaults. They have what I call an "I-win-button". They come largely in three flavours - jumpy shotguns, jumpy mass drivers and jumpy nova knives. Except perhaps for the last one, there's virtually no skill involved with these shenanigans. The shotguns are just really point and shoot and the addition of the jump makes them almost impossible to avoid. The nova knives are actually kind of scary but really quite talented in the way they seem to be able to do their tricks. I have to admire them, although I hate them with a vengeance. :) But the jumpy mass drivers are just unreasonably unavoidable. They jump so you can't hit them, they fire while they're in the air so they have the advantage of height, and the damage they inflict has significant splash. They don't even have to be particularly accurate! Yes, the jumpy assaults are a really nasty problem. Your analysis of them, and the specific statement that the jumpy attribute isn't even used for what it was intended, makes a very clear case for both removing the effect from the game and also never making such ill considered changes again. Clearly, any changes to the game should be small, incremental, and extremely careful. Both here an in EvE, CCP often seems to make revolutionary rather than evolutionary changes and they always seem to result in some form of crisis, as well as FOTM problems. Revolutionary changes might be OK when you're developing a new game, but we're talking about a game or games which have been around for quite some time and players need for them to NOT change radically, other than with the introduction of something truly revolutionary. Any content already in the game should be largely left alone.
Bradric Banewolf Eternal Beings I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1	Posted - 2016.01.06 15:24:00 - [22] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Very good analysis, OP! I particularly want to focus on the "META" you talked about - Jumpy Assaults. They have what I call an "I-win-button". They come largely in three flavours - jumpy shotguns, jumpy mass drivers and jumpy nova knives. Except perhaps for the last one, there's virtually no skill involved with these shenanigans. The shotguns are just really point and shoot and the addition of the jump makes them almost impossible to avoid. The nova knives are actually kind of scary but really quite talented in the way they seem to be able to do their tricks. I have to admire them, although I hate them with a vengeance. :) But the jumpy mass drivers are just unreasonably unavoidable. They jump so you can't hit them, they fire while they're in the air so they have the advantage of height, and the damage they inflict has significant splash. They don't even have to be particularly accurate! Yes, the jumpy assaults are a really nasty problem. Your analysis of them, and the specific statement that the jumpy attribute isn't even used for what it was intended, makes a very clear case for both removing the effect from the game and also never making such ill considered changes again. Clearly, any changes to the game should be small, incremental, and extremely careful. Both here an in EvE, CCP often seems to make revolutionary rather than evolutionary changes and they always seem to result in some form of crisis, as well as FOTM problems. Revolutionary changes might be OK when you're developing a new game, but we're talking about a game or games which have been around for quite some time and players need for them to NOT change radically, other than with the introduction of something truly revolutionary. Any content already in the game should be largely left alone. Yeah, the gimmicks must go! Thank you for your input! "Anybody order chaos?"


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