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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
462
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Posted - 2015.09.30 07:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4?
Data
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
462
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Posted - 2015.09.30 09:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Also, doesn't the charge shot do x3.5 damage, not x4? Data So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result.
Where are you getting the 3.8 from?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
463
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Posted - 2015.10.01 05:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:So 3.8x damage then? I see the logic here too. It's just not the surprising result. Where are you getting the 3.8 from? Ooops, forgot to take into account the micro charge charge. Just looked at the multiplyer from the first 58 damage. Should have looked at the base of 54. 219 / 58 = 3.8 219 / 54.6 = 4 So yes, 4x is right. Yes myself and Thaddeus studied that VERY in depth when we did the data collection for that spread sheet. We were a bit shocked to find out it was a total of x4 when by all accounts before that it was believed to be 3.5. I made a copy of the spreadsheet and added columns for 1, 2, and 3 damage mods multiplied by the actual damage done to armor. Scroll all the way to the right to see those columns. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rP783wR_YHtb0jGqWyRNqFly_DNyyUFJtAlgDg-sFsw/edit?usp=sharingAt just 80ms of micro charging with ONE damage mod the damage versus armor has reached the full base value of the ScR completely erasing what is suppose to be the primary drawback of this weapon. With 2 damage mods the base microcharge damage at 40 ms has returned to the base damage value of the weapon 100% eliminating the -20%. How many times has Rattati said the problem is the scrambler is too effective against armor?
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
470
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended.
Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields on the ScR...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done.
Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power).
I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
470
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 07:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:
The Damage Profile isn't the primary drawback of the ScR, the Heat Buildup is. The problem with your line of reasoning, is that the shot will still be doing proportionally higher damage to shields as well, you seem to be trying to characterize it as magically no longer having its profile which isn't the case. Any weapon is capable of stacking damage mods and doing additional damage vs the buffer they are weaker to...while the ScR may be a unique case in that it builds up more damage as it charges, it also builds up additional heat...every point of damage you build up past your base damage to that buffer generates 3x the heat of the "normal" damage...after foxfour that will be 4x the heat. Part of the trouble when looking at Laser type weaponry in this game is that they have both heat and magazine capacity...which both function as hard DPS limiters, it's better to look at a heat cycle as a sort of magazine cycle on its own.
The issue is with proficiency, warbarge, and damage modifiers added to the profile you are talking over 150% damage before any charge is applied. The primary drawback first and fore most is that for all it gains against shields it is suppose to be less proficient against armor by a fairly big margin but that is being completely cancelled out by how other bonuses stack with the charge bonus. The only thing we can really compare to is the combat rifle with its +15 / -15 profile. Overall almost any armor player would be glad to say it is OP while any shield player would say that it is not that bad. This is because its damage profile is working as intended. Proficiency only mods the profile vs shields...not against armor. And while staking 3 damage mods with Warbarge will negate the "negative" on the damage profile (doing a little more than 1x damage actually...1.0198x damage), you're still vs shields getting that massive 1.7592x Damage Multiplier...and regardless of what multipliers you add on past that, the damage proportion will remain similar. That's a difference in damage percentage of over 70% when all is said and done. Let's compare this to a Plasma Rifle with Max Warbarge and 3x Damage mods...it too will completely negate it's negative damage profile against armor, doing 1.1373x damage vs armor and 1.613x Damage vs Shields...and just reverse those numbers for the rail rifle. CBRs do 1.68589x Damage with the same setup vs armor and still do 1.308356x Damage vs shields. If you look...the damage profiles at the end arive about where you'd expect them to be...maintaining proportional damage based on type. The only thing the ScR can do that's different is frontload some of its charges into the Charge Shot...at a cost of heat (effectively magazine in terms of fire limiting power). I'd hardly call the CBR OP anymore...it's right about where it needs to be vs both my armor suits and my shield suits. I'm holding off any further judgment on the Scrambler Rifle until we see how these upcoming changes will affect the performance (think about how huge they are for a second...particularly that slow-on-charge one). (fail) My point is that the Scrambler receives a MASSIVE bonus against shield with everything accounted for. It is SUPPOSE to also have a large drawback against armor to balance this out. Instead the warbarge bonus and damage modifiers in combination with the charging mechanics are completely negating what is suppose to be the first and most important drawback for the scrambler. Many time Rattati has said the ScR is too effective against armor. What I am trying to explain is that this is exactly why it is too effective against armor and no amount no screwing around with heat build up, kick, movement speed, or whatever else you want to come up with is going to fix this 100% broken design. Either the charge bonus has to be significantly reduced or the profile has got to be changed. There is no way around this since obviously redesigning damage mods and the warbarge to fix the scrambler is out of the question.
So can we at least agree that we'd rather have damage mod's design changed as a more optimal solution to the tactical advantage provided by the charge shot? (and by extension the tactical advantage provided by any alpha-strike based weapon)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
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