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[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.17 06:36:00 -
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Long Post Alert
Someone posted this in a thread about the daily SP boost you get for the first few games of the day:
Los Silentio wrote:People have lives, jobs, relationships...things of that nature. The system is fine as is. I need to feed my family too! Ramen noodles are expensive nowadays! Lol. In all seriousness though, people who have all day to play each week need not to gain any advantage tbh. Maybe find a job instead?
I thought I would start a new thread with my response since it's so long:
Apologies for sounding like an ass, but that kind of talk is ruining the game industry for the people who enjoy video games the most. It is possible for everyone to enjoy the game equally without feeding the casuals. As an example, Halo 2 and 3 had a ranking system that was based on your win/loss ratio(winning raises it, losing lowers it). The understood overall goal of the online multiplayer was to raise your rank as high as you could, which made the ranked playlists very competitive and exciting. There were also unranked social playlists for people who didn't or shouldn't care about a competitive rank (casuals). But I guess somewhere along the line, casuals complained to Bungie that they wanted a rank that they could get up without having to actually practice and get better. So that's when Bungie decided to eliminate the w/l rank and give everyone a Call of Duty style progression system, leaving competitive players with one crappy arena playlist that reset your rank after a month or something. Because of that, the game lost a lot of it's replay value. I don't know one person who played Reach for longer than a few weeks before getting tired of it.
I know that example is a lot more extreme than the SP boost in Dust, but it's still a step in the same direction. The point that I am getting to is that with a perfect competitive ranking system, every player has a different skill level and therefore every player has a place in the matchmaking. Other than this just being a general rant, I would think that it will also apply to Dust in a way. I'm not completely sure how the game is going to work, but I figure that the skill levels of the mercenaries that Eve players hire will correspond with the amount of money they pay. If that's the case, then nobody will have an "unfair advantage" because the Eve players control who you're facing anyway. And as long as there are Eve players paying different amounts of ISK, everyone will have a place regardless of their skill levels.
tl;dr You don't need to feed casual players to balance the game. Everyone will enjoy it equally regardless of their skill levels
Sorry for long post, let me know if you agree or disagree |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 19:47:00 -
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bump |
[Veteran_Orin Fenris]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:05:00 -
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I skimmed the last part, but I get the gist of what you're saying, and I disagree.
I think it's fine the way it is. If people want to pay roughly $20 a month for a continuous 50% skill boost (ONLY to ACTIVELY EARNED POINTS), then by all means, let them. It's keeping CCP paid and that means DUST will be supported. all because some guy wants up to 30,000 EXP per game instead of 20-25,000. (Which is the equivalent of a 100k game right now, which is still rare enough)
Honestly, a 50% bonus isn't a lot. It will add up, and if you can only play for the weekend or something, get the 3 day one, and play all day, you MIGHT catch up to someone who DOESN'T pay, but plays all week long.
Certainly there will be those guys who play all day all week AND pay for the boosters, but y'know what? Who cares?
Let me ask you a question.
Lets say you're spending roughly $25-$50 million (or more, not sure of the budget) on making a video game that will be FREE TO DOWNLOAD AND PLAY. How are you going to make money off of it?
How do you charge people without making it mandatory? You think people are going to FLOCK to some "custom paint job" BS? or would they rather have something that actually adds skill.
Besides, once they introduce the open market, I have no doubt you'll be buying the 7 day boosters for roughly .. oh.. i dunno... 2 or 3 million ISK? maybe 5 mill? It won't be cheap, but seriously... put a price on AUR, and Skill points, and weigh it to the cost of ISK (which will start depreciating the moment the game comes out).
Honestly man, let CCP launch the game before you go bug nuts on their profit-gains. |
[Veteran_DemonicChaos]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:19:00 -
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Where did you see that it will be free to download and play? AFAIK it would be like any other game ~50 or so when released but no charge for subscription free to play but not completely free. Would be great if I'm wrong but ccp/sony need to make money aside from people buying aurum |
[Veteran_GM Unicorn]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:27:00 -
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DemonicChaos wrote:Where did you see that it will be free to download and play? AFAIK it would be like any other game ~50 or so when released but no charge for subscription free to play but not completely free. Would be great if I'm wrong but ccp/sony need to make money aside from people buying aurum
It will be FREE TO PLAY. Consider that an official statement from CCP. DUST 514 will be free to play. Would you like to chip in for some AUR? Go for it! It's totally up to you. You'll be able to play and enjoy DUST 514 without open you (real)wallet at all. |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:35:00 -
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woops, I just realized my original post was totally out of context. The original topic was the daily skill boost that you get for your first few games of the day, not the skill boosts you can buy. I'll edit my original post |
[Veteran_DemonicChaos]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:45:00 -
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That explains why every time I've checked in the game store they don't have a release date:) When will passive sp boosts be added? I see section for them in market but don't see any for sale yet
GM Unicorn wrote:DemonicChaos wrote:Where did you see that it will be free to download and play? AFAIK it would be like any other game ~50 or so when released but no charge for subscription free to play but not completely free. Would be great if I'm wrong but ccp/sony need to make money aside from people buying aurum It will be FREE TO PLAY. Consider that an official statement from CCP. DUST 514 will be free to play. Would you like to chip in for some AUR? Go for it! It's totally up to you. You'll be able to play and enjoy DUST 514 without open you (real)wallet at all.
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[Veteran_GM Unicorn]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 21:50:00 -
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SOONGäó |
[Veteran_Ryan Martel]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 23:16:00 -
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Funny I didn't know you could trademark SOON. So does this mean I have to pay up every time I use that in a sentence now? Everything about DUST's new beta is coming SOON(trademark) and I cannot wait to get my hands on it. |
[Veteran_Absolute Idiom]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 00:01:00 -
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Actually, only -« is the Registered trademark. Gäó is an unregistered trademark. |
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[Veteran_Grideris]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 06:21:00 -
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Ryan Martel wrote:Funny I didn't know you could trademark SOON. So does this mean I have to pay up every time I use that in a sentence now? Everything about DUST's new beta is coming SOON(trademark) and I cannot wait to get my hands on it.
It's an EVE thing. People say that Valve and Blizzard take forever to do stuff. CCP has been beating them for years with SoonGäó. |
[Veteran_CookieStein]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 06:43:00 -
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You don't sound like an ass you just sound like you really don't get Dust, and Eve even less. The closest thing to your Halo ranked servers is high/low/null sec and thats no comparison at all...it's like apples to volkswagons. These negative daily sp bonus threads are becoming the new tiresome topic.
To start with explain to me how if something aplies to everyone it caters to anyone. It's a helpful incentive to play daily which will hopefully aid in keeping servers fuller. MAG did the exact same thing. A by product of that is it will be a minor aid to players that don't have as much gaming time as others.
To blanket all of those players as casual is ignorant...there are plenty of hardcore players that are grown ups, have jobs, a wife, kids, a dog to walk, dinner to make and a time to get to bed because they have a life the next day.
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[Veteran_mikel Dracionas]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 08:19:00 -
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CookieStein wrote:You don't sound like an ass you just sound like you really don't get Dust, and Eve even less. The closest thing to your Halo ranked servers is high/low/null sec and thats no comparison at all...it's like apples to volkswagons. These negative daily sp bonus threads are becoming the new tiresome topic.
To start with explain to me how if something aplies to everyone it caters to anyone. It's a helpful incentive to play daily which will hopefully aid in keeping servers fuller. MAG did the exact same thing. A by product of that is it will be a minor aid to players that don't have as much gaming time as others.
To blanket all of those players as casual is ignorant...there are plenty of hardcore players that are grown ups, have jobs, a wife, kids, a dog to walk, dinner to make and a time to get to bed because they have a life the next day.
QFT
i agree 100% i am a hardcore but i have to work that boost will be nice but o the other hand it suck because i play tons when i can and each game will give me less but oh well
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[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 09:25:00 -
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CookieStein wrote:You don't sound like an ass you just sound like you really don't get Dust, and Eve even less.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at honestly. I'm assuming you mean how Eve's skill system is based on time rather than accomplishments? That is true for Eve, but CCP has put an emphasis on actual play time in Dust by allowing players to control how they progress. In the same way, you can control how you progress in Halo or any other game with a progression system like that. In that regard, the two are perfectly comparable.
CookieStein wrote:To start with explain to me how if something aplies to everyone it caters to anyone. ... A by product of that is it will be a minor aid to players that don't have as much gaming time as others.
Like I said, it is a minor aid to the players who play less, but it is a step in the casual game direction. And if you really want me to explain I'll give you an example: (Assuming that you get a 50% SP boost for the first 5 games and regular SP for the rest)
Player A plays five matches one day and goes 10/0 every game and he gets 60k SP per match.
Player B plays ten matches the same day and goes 10/0 every game, but he only gets 50k SP per match.
CookieStein wrote:To blanket all of those players as casual is ignorant...there are plenty of hardcore players that are grown ups, have jobs, a wife, kids, a dog to walk, dinner to make and a time to get to bed because they have a life the next day.
If you think my post is about some "hardcores vs casuals war", or if you think the word casual is an insult or something, then you are sadly mistaken. Also never once did I say that people who work full time(like me), or go to school full time (like me), or have a family, were all casual players. And nowhere is there a universal definition of a "casual" or "hardcore" player. What I said in my first line is that the kind of talk I quoted is the reason a lot of games are a lot less fun than they used to be, for a lot of people. Players who don't play as much or aren't as good or whatever complain to the devs and the devs respond, in one way or another, by enabling them to feel more accomplished while at the same time sacrificing a lot of fun for the "hardcore" players |
[Veteran_CookieStein]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 12:49:00 -
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Eve is brutal by design, so shall Dust be. There is no segregation, the closest thing to that idea is your 3 levels of sec which have mechanics built in to in theory make high safer than null. But that guarantees nothing. Anyone can be blown the hell up at any time. You would actually have a lot of Eve players say the opposite is true and null is safer than high. Dust being in the same universe reflects that.
Your example of ranked servers caters to the casual player not the hardcore. A by product of that is hardcore players can exclusively play with players of a similar rank to them.
I'm not going to go on about your A B example not making sense, I'll assume you meant to say that A over 5 matches averages 60k and B over 10 matches averages 50k. But I'll say again it is a bonus that applies to everyone. Take it away and with your example we now have A averaging 50k and B averaging 40k.
Let me put it this way no one is having anything taken away from them because they can play for 8 hrs a day. Everyone is given an incentive to play everyday. That is bad how?
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[Veteran_Alliria Seedspawns]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 14:28:00 -
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I'm not a fan of the SP Boost either, but then again, I'm against any form of active SP. I feel it should all be passive. Find something else to keep the attention of those folks that require instant gratification. Perhaps more isk or war points? I don't know what, I just don't like the active SP gain at all. |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 18:03:00 -
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CookieStein wrote:
I'm not going to go on about your A B example not making sense, I'll assume you meant to say that A over 5 matches averages 60k and B over 10 matches averages 50k. But I'll say again it is a bonus that applies to everyone. Take it away and with your example we now have A averaging 50k and B averaging 40k.
Ok I'll simplify it more
Player A five matches
Match 1 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 2 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 3 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 4 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 5 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Player B ten matches
Match 1 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 2 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 3 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 4 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 5 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k
Match 6 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k
Match 7 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k
Match 8 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k
Match 9 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k
Match 10 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k
Player A ( 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k ) / 5 = 60k per game average
Player B ( 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 40k + 40k + 40k + 40k + 40k ) / 10 = 50k per game average
As for your segregation, do you mean the concept by which Dust players will have different worth and therefore different prices? I brought this up in another thread and it was actually confirmed that Eve players will control who they hire, and with that ability I'm sure there will be some sort of market for Dust players.
I'm still not gathering what you mean when you say "ranked servers". Do you mean "ranked playlists"? The ranked playlists don't cater to anyone. Everyone has an even chance to get their rank up with no boosts or anything. The reason casuals don't like it is simply because they want a higher rank but can't get one. The way devs tend to deal with that is allow casuals to get a high rank, regardless of their skill. I feel like I'm repeating myself now |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 19:53:00 -
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As someone who played dust religiously with several weekends with 20hour+ for all four days on dust, I am comfortable with the rate of active SP decay that gets applied to your earnings. You get a rad boost at the beginning of the day (first few matches) and then it slowly removes the bonus until it becomes a penalty after like 8-10 hours. It doesn't really started to hurt your SP until the 15-20 hour mark, and by then gentle nudges to go eat/sleep are probably for the best.
But like I said. It is a pretty comfortable slope and even when the penalty seemed to be at its maximum (Seems to cap off after 20 hours or so) I never felt like saying 'omg this is pointless I get no SP'. |
[Veteran_Legendary Ecko]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 20:21:00 -
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Nova Knife wrote:As someone who played dust religiously with several weekends with 20hour+ for all four days on dust, I am comfortable with the rate of active SP decay that gets applied to your earnings. You get a rad boost at the beginning of the day (first few matches) and then it slowly removes the bonus until it becomes a penalty after like 8-10 hours. It doesn't really started to hurt your SP until the 15-20 hour mark, and by then gentle nudges to go eat/sleep are probably for the best.
But like I said. It is a pretty comfortable slope and even when the penalty seemed to be at its maximum (Seems to cap off after 20 hours or so) I never felt like saying 'omg this is pointless I get no SP'.
I'm guessing you use HAV's a lot? That's the only time I manage to get decent ISK after 4-5 matches. I rarely use tanks, but riding as a passenger racks up kills. |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 21:26:00 -
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Nova Knife wrote:As someone who played dust religiously with several weekends with 20hour+ for all four days on dust, I am comfortable with the rate of active SP decay that gets applied to your earnings. You get a rad boost at the beginning of the day (first few matches) and then it slowly removes the bonus until it becomes a penalty after like 8-10 hours. It doesn't really started to hurt your SP until the 15-20 hour mark, and by then gentle nudges to go eat/sleep are probably for the best.
But like I said. It is a pretty comfortable slope and even when the penalty seemed to be at its maximum (Seems to cap off after 20 hours or so) I never felt like saying 'omg this is pointless I get no SP'.
I wish it were clearly marked at the least, I had no idea that's how it works. I like it more the way you've explained it, but there could still be better ways to encourage people to log in every day. Maybe grant players one usable 1-hour SP boost every day that expires at the end of the day. That way they can decide when to use it, and they will also be getting a sample of the kind of item they can buy with aur, which would be a good way to promote spending $ |
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[Veteran_CookieStein]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 21:53:00 -
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Rex Manhunter wrote:CookieStein wrote:
I'm not going to go on about your A B example not making sense, I'll assume you meant to say that A over 5 matches averages 60k and B over 10 matches averages 50k. But I'll say again it is a bonus that applies to everyone. Take it away and with your example we now have A averaging 50k and B averaging 40k.
Ok I'll simplify it more Player A five matchesMatch 1 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 2 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 3 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 4 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 5 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Player B ten matchesMatch 1 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 2 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 3 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 4 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 5 (with boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 60k Match 6 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k Match 7 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k Match 8 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k Match 9 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k Match 10 (no boost): K/D - 10/0 SP - 40k Player A( 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k ) / 5 = 60k per game average Player B( 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 60k + 40k + 40k + 40k + 40k + 40k ) / 10 = 50k per game average Wow you seriously wrote all that out instead of just saying "Yes that's what I meant." |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:02:00 -
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CookieStein wrote:Wow you seriously wrote all that out instead of just saying "Yes that's what I meant."
Correct, I seriously wrote all that out, because what you said was not what I meant. You said "Take [the boost] away and with your example we now have A averaging 50k and B averaging 40k". I wrote out the example to show that, without the boost, both A and B would average 40k SP per match, instead of A averaging more SP per match than B |
[Veteran_briyan jenkins]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:23:00 -
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I can even do the trademark tm thing on my iPad :(
Edit: can't" |
[Veteran_briyan jenkins]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:27:00 -
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Rex Manhunter wrote:CookieStein wrote:Wow you seriously wrote all that out instead of just saying "Yes that's what I meant." Correct, I seriously wrote all that out, because what you said was not what I meant. You said "Take [the boost] away and with your example we now have A averaging 50k and B averaging 40k". I wrote out the example to show that, without the boost, both A and B would average 40k SP per match, instead of A averaging more SP per match than B What part of TEAM BASED GAME and NO ONE MAN WIM BE A TANK DON'T YOU GET it doesn't matter if one person has boosters they won't change the outcome of the match |
[Veteran_Dred Harbinger]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:38:00 -
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all i am getting out of Rex Manhunter example is that Player A played 5 matches and got 300K XP while Player B played 10 and got 500K XP. That seems okay to me. Player B still got more XP for putting in more time. |
[Veteran_Rex Manhunter]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 23:35:00 -
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briyan jenkins wrote:What part of TEAM BASED GAME and NO ONE MAN WIM BE A TANK DON'T YOU GET it doesn't matter if one person has boosters they won't change the outcome of the match What about that quote or any of my posts suggests that I don't understand what a team-based game is, or the fact that no one man wim be a tank (whatever that means)? Was it my reply to that other guy's confusion about my daily SP boost example? Btw your caps lock key seems to be broken
Dred Harbinger wrote:all i am getting out of Rex Manhunter example is that Player A played 5 matches and got 300K XP while Player B played 10 and got 500K XP. That seems okay to me. Player B still got more XP for putting in more time. A lot of people feel that way, a lot of people feel my way. Maybe a different way of approaching the daily play incentive - like the one in my previous post - would satisfy more people |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.21 04:06:00 -
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Legendary Ecko wrote:Nova Knife wrote:Blah Blah, SP gain still okay after 20 hours. I'm guessing you use HAV's a lot? That's the only time I manage to get decent ISK after 4-5 matches. I rarely use tanks, but riding as a passenger racks up kills.
Generally, no... Pistols + scout suit pewpewpew. |
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