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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 08:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. |
Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 08:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Or charge 200K ISK to see the enemy team in the warbarge. Then charge another 200K if they leave battle. |
DeadlyAztec11
8
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Posted - 2015.08.15 08:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Try again.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 08:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Try again.
Care to expand?
People leave matches when they see 4 players from a corp. if it's worth 400K they can puss out. |
Union118
NON-Fatal Condemnation
655
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Posted - 2015.08.15 09:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Or charge 200K ISK to see the enemy team in the warbarge. Then charge another 200K if they leave battle. Thats a good one.
Starter Fit Suits are OP :-)
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Raven-747
WarRavens
150
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Posted - 2015.08.15 09:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
That won't ever happen. By charging players to leave is like forcing them to get stomped by proto scrubs. Which means the playerbase will further reduce. So no let the scrubs stomp on empty maps and melee eachother.
Karma is not a bit*h, but a mirror.
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xavier zor
Abyss of Universe
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 10:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
or just name and shame battle leavers
warrior kill has left every single match i've seen him play
Zor's double ISK service
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Darken-Sol
Darken's Forge and Trade
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 11:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there.
Crush them
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there.
It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines.
If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. |
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 14:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. You can't take the team list and killfeed out of a shooter though. Without those no one would want to play because those are standard elements.
That being said, I think that non-Pubs shouldn't have a team list or killfeed. Rattati said Dust is supposed to be a more tactical game, so removing sources of "free intel" would help with that.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Count- -Crotchula
286
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Posted - 2015.08.15 14:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there.
i tried to play calfw earlier, waited 8 minutes, went and made a sandwich, even put roast chicken crisps inside, queue was still going...I exited the queue, re-queued and waited for another 5 minutes.
Then I realised I'm actually, literally staring at a clock, I'm staring at a clock, that's it.
I'll play fw when some other ****** does, not that this was aimed at me or that I play in squads but felt like QQ'ing about FW Q times! |
Panthrax Oblivion
820
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä
GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñ..
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable The gear you run doesn't make much of a difference. If you have your skills up and you know how to play the game, you're going to end up beating up people who are newer since there's nowhere else for us all to play and get ISK.
A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Panthrax Oblivion
821
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable The gear you run doesn't make much of a difference. If you have your skills up and you know how to play the game, you're going to end up beating up people who are newer since there's nowhere else for us all to play and get ISK. A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear. Ok, then start running solo
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä
GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñ..
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mask the symptoms or resolve the underlying issues?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Death Shadow117
Wolf Pack Special Forces
544
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable The gear you run doesn't make much of a difference. If you have your skills up and you know how to play the game, you're going to end up beating up people who are newer since there's nowhere else for us all to play and get ISK. A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear. if the gear you run doesn't matter then why do the proto bears ***** and moan when we ask for it to be removed from pubs. If the gear really doesn't matter and it all depends on your skill then why proto stomp like a skilless scrub?
Duct tape fixes everything from weapons to suits and even tanks.
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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Or we could make the academy be based on lifetime SP instead of WP gain, and then allow boobs to continue to queue for academy matches until, say, 5m SP or so, so they have at least some chance of fighting back.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Panthrax Oblivion
821
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable The gear you run doesn't make much of a difference. If you have your skills up and you know how to play the game, you're going to end up beating up people who are newer since there's nowhere else for us all to play and get ISK. A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear. I'm sure the 2 art of death members who went 49/3 combined with proto was only because they knew how to play together
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä
GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñ..
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Beld Errmon
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'd really enjoy there being no killfeed, XT launcher is like ringing the dinner bell for all the oxygen thieves that sponge WPs off my dropship the moment it flies near their redline/safe little rooftop.
Assault Dropship Pilot
Semi-Retired Closed Bittervet
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Onesimus Tarsus
Vader's-Fist
3
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Remove any indication of anything you're doing unless someone falls down in front of you or the MCC blows up real good.
I have ONE PC match to my credit. ONE.
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Darken-Sol
Darken's Forge and Trade
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 17:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad.
Perhaps people just choose not to play against you. Its still a game. Noone wants to be spawn camped repeatedly.
Crush them
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Panthrax Oblivion
821
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 17:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:I'd really enjoy there being no killfeed, XT launcher is like ringing the dinner bell for all the oxygen thieves that sponge WPs off my dropship the moment it flies near their redline/safe little rooftop. I see/hear a dropship before I notice it in the killfeed
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä
GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñ..
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 21:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable
I run Apex 90% of the time. Too many suits to have non proto AV fits and speed hacks etc. |
Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 21:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Mask the symptoms or resolve the underlying issues?
What would those be? I can't grow testicIes for people. |
sir RAVEN WING
Vader's-Fist
4
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah, no reason to leave a battle, just 12 guys from a latin corp renown for proto use on the other side.
We didn't even leave then, but we understood why people were, and the fact my squad (Fireteam) had all 12 each and every match is not too good either, so we dropped from matches with them to get in more balanced matchs.
VF Diplomat.
"Goodbye Mr. Fishy, you're now a bird."
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
sir RAVEN WING wrote:Yeah, no reason to leave a battle, just 12 guys from a latin corp renown for proto use on the other side.
We didn't even leave then, but we understood why people were, and the fact my squad (Fireteam) had all 12 each and every match is not too good either, so we dropped from matches with them to get in more balanced matchs.
I'll leave a battle with quickness. But only after its clear my team is full of window licking cowards |
Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
839
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 21:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad.
the problem is when there are multiple squads on one side along with multiple syncs going on making one side more organized because of cowards that refuse to play solo in pub matches and use proto/officer gear along with half their team doing the same, while the other teams blue dots are mlt newbros or low sp characters that cant even field proto gear
click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
6
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sicerly Yaw wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. the problem is when there are multiple squads on one side along with multiple syncs going on making one side more organized because of cowards that refuse to play solo in pub matches and use proto/officer gear along with half their team doing the same, while the other teams blue dots are mlt newbros or low sp characters that cant even field proto gear
In my experience this just hasn't been the case, I'm not saying it isn't for others.
I feel like there are more veterans that are refusing to FPS and only open world PVE to the detriment of noobs. I look at the 0-17 dudes and get more pissed at the dudes that went 3-0 sniping than I do the squad of 4 using proto on the other team. |
Darken-Sol
Darken's Forge and Trade
2
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Sicerly Yaw wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. the problem is when there are multiple squads on one side along with multiple syncs going on making one side more organized because of cowards that refuse to play solo in pub matches and use proto/officer gear along with half their team doing the same, while the other teams blue dots are mlt newbros or low sp characters that cant even field proto gear In my experience this just hasn't been the case, I'm not saying it isn't for others. I feel like there are more veterans that are refusing to FPS and only open world PVE to the detriment of noobs. I look at the 0-17 dudes and get more pissed at the dudes that went 3-0 sniping than I do the squad of 4 using proto on the other team.
Take half the stompers and fight the other half. If only you could find a place to do that where noobs are excluded.
Crush them
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Death Shadow117
Wolf Pack Special Forces
545
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Sicerly Yaw wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. the problem is when there are multiple squads on one side along with multiple syncs going on making one side more organized because of cowards that refuse to play solo in pub matches and use proto/officer gear along with half their team doing the same, while the other teams blue dots are mlt newbros or low sp characters that cant even field proto gear In my experience this just hasn't been the case, I'm not saying it isn't for others. I feel like there are more veterans that are refusing to FPS and only open world PVE to the detriment of noobs. I look at the 0-17 dudes and get more pissed at the dudes that went 3-0 sniping than I do the squad of 4 using proto on the other team. grammar or translation please im lost.
Duct tape fixes everything from weapons to suits and even tanks.
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
8
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Posted - 2015.08.16 00:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Or we could make the academy be based on lifetime SP instead of WP gain, and then allow boobs to continue to queue for academy matches until, say, 5m SP or so, so they have at least some chance of fighting back. There should be 2 academies. 1 for >1.5mill SP, and another for 1.5mill < X < 5mill SP
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
7
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Posted - 2015.08.16 06:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Death Shadow117 wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Sicerly Yaw wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:Darken-Sol wrote:Take your squads to factional warfare. Better fights, better pay. Pubs are basicly the new academy. You are the ***** for being there. It's hard to call them fights. 90% are two minute redlines. If a 4 man squad is stomping out an entire skirmish match that's just sad. the problem is when there are multiple squads on one side along with multiple syncs going on making one side more organized because of cowards that refuse to play solo in pub matches and use proto/officer gear along with half their team doing the same, while the other teams blue dots are mlt newbros or low sp characters that cant even field proto gear In my experience this just hasn't been the case, I'm not saying it isn't for others. I feel like there are more veterans that are refusing to FPS and only open world PVE to the detriment of noobs. I look at the 0-17 dudes and get more pissed at the dudes that went 3-0 sniping than I do the squad of 4 using proto on the other team. grammar or translation please im lost.
Really, Jesus.
I notice players on the end of the match leaderboard whose scores seem to reflect that they are new players (0-17). Then I see recognizable veteran players whose scores indicate they were not trying to win the match. I place more fault on the veteran players not putting out effort on the new player's team rather than the enemy team using prototype gear. |
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.08.16 07:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote: A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear.
Errr no.... I tend to see that if high end groups, don't use all proto gear... they tend to be rather average on the scoreboards.... Vs random pubbie groups.
It's proof enough to me that they are over reliant on their gear and modules. Plus they rely on "cluster kills", where more than one person shoots at the same target.
Many of the "elite" in this game have become sloppy. The groupers also tend not to be able to take a point solo, which makes them vulnerable in a multi-point match, because they can only hold one point out of the four or five. All one has to do is swoop in after them to retrieve the point. No need to directly engage them.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
7
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Posted - 2015.08.16 18:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote: A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear.
Errr no.... I tend to see that if high end groups, don't use all proto gear... they tend to be rather average on the scoreboards.... Vs random pubbie groups. It's proof enough to me that they are over reliant on their gear and modules. Plus they rely on "cluster kills", where more than one person shoots at the same target. Many of the "elite" in this game have become sloppy. The groupers also tend not to be able to take a point solo, which makes them vulnerable in a multi-point match, because they can only hold one point out of the four or five. All one has to do is swoop in after them to retrieve the point. No need to directly engage them.
I love reading stuff like this.
Why would a squad of four do anything but hold one point? Not that this is what people end up doing but shouldn't a squad of four expect for the other 12 to secure the 2 or 3 others needed for the win? You only need 3 points, so that would leave 12 for 2 other points.
If they look sloppy it's because they are spread thin and can't work together. Or they stay on one point out of frustration and slap people around when they try to go for a redline. Sorry the people that actually try can't kill everybody while also securing objectives. |
Jammer Jalapeno
Take Off Eh
327
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Posted - 2015.08.16 19:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
Or how about some kind of end of match bonus? Either better payout for sticking around to fight, or some kind of loot, or perhaps credits that can be used in the market for really cool stuff.
But in order to qualify for your end of match bonus you must actually try and make at least 500 wp.
MmMmMm Glitter
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Lightning35 Delta514
48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE
1
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Posted - 2015.08.16 19:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Just remove Corp info. Just leave name.
CEO of 48SOF
Assault Gk.0-Scout Gk.0
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
7
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Posted - 2015.08.16 19:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:Just remove Corp info. Just leave name.
I'd go for that, especially in FW |
Starlight Burner
Vader's-Fist
412
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Posted - 2015.08.16 21:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
@remove ability to see who you're facing. Hell no.
xavier zor wrote:warrior kill has left every single match i've seen him play That's because he's a scrub & btch!
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:Just remove Corp info. Just leave name. No
CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation
Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today!
Thank you for DUST
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7th Son 7
Hakuna Matatah Inc
1
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Posted - 2015.08.16 21:56:00 -
[39] - Quote
xavier zor wrote:or just name and shame battle leavers
warrior kill has left every single match i've seen him play
Name and shame? lmfao, you think people that leave battles give 2 sh!ts what you or anybody else has to say a out it? lmao, you're funny. For the record i've also seen Warrior Kill stay in battles that were one-sided before. I was under the assumption that everybody that still plays Dust can't even feel shame or humiliation anymore, maybe I was wrong lol.
Only your complete and total awareness is needed, nothing else will do. ----- OSHO
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.16 23:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. How else will i know when to leave battle without seeing the laggy people with king arther Internet.
CBM
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.08.16 23:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jammer Jalapeno wrote:Or how about some kind of end of match bonus? Either better payout for sticking around to fight, or some kind of loot, or perhaps credits that can be used in the market for really cool stuff.
But in order to qualify for your end of match bonus you must actually try and make at least 500 wp. ^
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
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Posted - 2015.08.17 06:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
sweet lets keep putting on band-aids
The whole game is held together by them anyway.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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Thor Odinson42
Negative-Feedback
7
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Posted - 2015.08.17 10:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:sweet lets keep putting on band-aids
The whole game is held together by them anyway.
I see it like the bowling lanes without gutters. I don't think this playerbase could let loose of the ball if they thought the ball would miss all the pins. |
LOL KILLZ
LOS INADAPTADOS
302
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. ^^^^^ yes OP
\0/
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Mex-0
Corrosive Synergy
842
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Posted - 2015.08.17 15:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:As well as the kill feed.
This should be step one in fixing matches. With four man squads there's no way people should be so scared in pubs. Or don't run proto all the time, stop worrying about your kdr, and give other team a chance. I find militia stomping to be much more enjoyable The gear you run doesn't make much of a difference. If you have your skills up and you know how to play the game, you're going to end up beating up people who are newer since there's nowhere else for us all to play and get ISK. A squad from a Corporation who knows how to play together and complements each other will destroy their opponents whether they're using all Militia or Officer gear.
Yeah, but militia mass drivers aren't 2-hit kills, whereas officer mass drivers destroy newberries.
Inactive because of old PS3
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