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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 11:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:Jump mods have not been beneficial to the game and have instead reinforced the 'if you can get on top of a rooftop you can close out the game' mentality
With that logic we should kill off Dropships, which are far more problematic than Jump Modules.
Jump modules are a tactical advantage as they can break cover and close distances much faster than traditional fittings. Apart from melee damage, they offer nothing (directly) in the way of combat. The alternative, however, is Damage Amplifiers and Shield Modules - which do offer a combat benefit. Considering the initiative to maintain a relatively high TTK while also limiting brick tanking, jump modules are a pleasant addition to the lineup of modules.
Further more, while it can be argued that they heighten rooftop gameplay, they also counter it.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:Juno Tristan wrote:Jump mods have not been beneficial to the game and have instead reinforced the 'if you can get on top of a rooftop you can close out the game' mentality Having started to use the 3xComplex Myo's I can say that their jump height is just perfect. It'll allow them to get on top of the large containers, but nothing more. Where they need a bit of a nerf, though, is their stamina usage. Double it, and the perpetually jumping jacks problem is reduced to people with bio exclusively, meaning no armour or shields to speak of.
Ehh... this isn't technically correct and would not really work... Thing is, jumping has a percentage based stamina cost, so it doesn't matter how many myo's you got on you're still going to incur the same penalties. Those stamina costs get higher based on how much you jump in a certain amount of time to make it so that you can only jump a pre-determined amount, regardless of how much stamina you have. It's been tested quite a few times and you can even test it yourself right now. Make a fit, throw on a bunch of complex cardiac regulators on your fit, and jump around. You'll still only be able to jump a few times, despite having 300-500% more stamina.
That and I honestly don't see why they should sweeping changes that are counter intuitive. It's like when they added shield recharge delay penalties to shield extenders... Makes absolutely no sense. Jump mods would be made fundamentally worthless if they eat too much stamina and it doesn't make much sense for that to happen anyway.
Honestly, I don't see a good argument for nerfing them. People hate them, absolutely, that goes without saying, but there aren't many (if any) clear cut reasons WHY they should be nerfed apart from general gameplay preference. Some people just don't like having to engage their enemy in a 3D environment, I guess.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:. Some people just don't like having to engage their enemy in a 3D environment with poor hit detection, I guess.
You're going to experience mechanical complications with any game and that is not a valid excuse to remove jump modules when dropships will still get you on a rooftop. Further more I'd argue that you're more likely to hit a jumper, who has a pre-determined movement path that he CANNOT CHANGE more so than wiggle-strafing scouts and minmatar assaults. When you want to remove all those things from the table then we can talk.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:. Some people just don't like having to engage their enemy in a 3D environment with poor hit detection, I guess. You're going to experience mechanical complications with any game and that is not a valid excuse to remove jump modules when dropships will still get you on a rooftop. Further more I'd argue that you're more likely to hit a jumper, who has a pre-determined movement path that he CANNOT CHANGE more so than wiggle-strafing scouts and minmatar assaults. When you want to remove all those things from the table then we can talk. Except most games will fix those mechanical complications, unlike DUST where they become baked in features. But their predictability does make them easier to hit if they aren't using the high ground like they should be. I don't even play infantry so it doesn't matter to me, i just know that since CCP can't code in new animations it looks obnoxious, and weapons like MDs and PLCs further reward less skillful behavior.
Neither of which were cripplingly over-powered by their own rights and weren't really a problem, recently, until jump modules became a thing. Which, given the rate of complaints about other weapons, if the use of jump modules is required for those weapons to be over-powered - let alone powerful at all - than I'd say they have a one-up on other weapons which are powerful in their own right, innately.
If anything that is just an otherwise unorthodox fitting combination that was made viable by a changing meta. But even still, the jump mods are completely negated indoors, so is it really that they the module+weapon combination is overpowered or a failure to adapt to a changing environment?
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:so is it really that they the module+weapon combination is overpowered or a failure to adapt to a changing environment? I'm just curious, how exactly does one adapt to fighting against high damage splash weapons that almost constantly are fired from above you? Also, somewhat unrelated, why is "go indoors" a valid argument for fighting jump mods, but not vehicles? (understandably vehicles can't follow you inside, but I can't imagine a smart jumpy player would choose to chase someone into somewhere they can't jump out of)
Kay, so, argument is going all over the place so I'll try to answer as best I can.
You can adapt to fighting high damage splash weaponry by closing the distance and fighting in areas where they can't jump, or via higher ground yourself. Mass Drivers and plasma cannons are about pointless when your enemy is above you because they have nothing to hit to make use of the splash damage. So, taking a rooftop yourself or being on a hill gives a tactical advantage. You can close the distance, and force them to use their own splash damage against themselves. You can go indoors where they can't jump. Or you can just shoot them while they're stuck on a floating trajectory that they cannot change.
It isn't the responsibility of game designers or the community to tell you how to get that edge, however, so it's largely on you to figure out how you want to counter them.
"Go indoors" is a valid argument against jump mods because if they try to jump they'll hit the ceiling. They can't benefit from their jump mods indoors. But you answered your own question in that vehicles can't follow you inside. To extrapolate on whether or not a player who uses jump mods will follow you inside - I use them and I remain cautious whenever following someone inside. I -know- I can't benefit from my height advantage any longer, I know I can't break their cover indoors, but sometimes I have to roll with the punches and just go with it (maybe there's an objective indoors, for instance). I can always fall back on the heightened melee damage though, and I don't use splash damage weaponry on those suits, so that is a plus.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 16:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:so is it really that they the module+weapon combination is overpowered or a failure to adapt to a changing environment? I'm just curious, how exactly does one adapt to fighting against high damage splash weapons that almost constantly are fired from above you? Also, somewhat unrelated, why is "go indoors" a valid argument for fighting jump mods, but not vehicles? (understandably vehicles can't follow you inside, but I can't imagine a smart jumpy player would choose to chase someone into somewhere they can't jump out of) Kay, so, argument is going all over the place so I'll try to answer as best I can. You can adapt to fighting high damage splash weaponry by closing the distance and fighting in areas where they can't jump, or via higher ground yourself. Mass Drivers and plasma cannons are about pointless when your enemy is above you because they have nothing to hit to make use of the splash damage. So, taking a rooftop yourself or being on a hill gives a tactical advantage. You can close the distance, and force them to use their own splash damage against themselves. You can go indoors where they can't jump. Or you can just shoot them while they're stuck on a floating trajectory that they cannot change. It isn't the responsibility of game designers or the community to tell you how to get that edge, however, so it's largely on you to figure out how you want to counter them. "Go indoors" is a valid argument against jump mods because if they try to jump they'll hit the ceiling. They can't benefit from their jump mods indoors. But you answered your own question in that vehicles can't follow you inside. To extrapolate on whether or not a player who uses jump mods will follow you inside - I use them and I remain cautious whenever following someone inside. I -know- I can't benefit from my height advantage any longer, I know I can't break their cover indoors, but sometimes I have to roll with the punches and just go with it (maybe there's an objective indoors, for instance). I can always fall back on the heightened melee damage though, and I don't use splash damage weaponry on those suits, so that is a plus. But in order to close the distance with jumpers you often have to be a jumper yourself. Go indoors is an equally valid argument vs vehicles because you either force them to disengage, or to become stationary waiting for you to come out, which makes them as good as dead if you aren't the only AV player. But, everyone wants to run straight at vehicles and destroy them rambo style.
Lol, there are far too many variables to account for, honestly. All I know is what works and I've never had a problem with jumpers, even when they're using mass drivers and plasma cannons. I'd say get better gun game but honestly anyone can just pick up a bolt pistol and their qualms with jumpers is effectively over x3
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.08.15 20:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
nelo kazuma wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Dewie Cheecham wrote:Juno Tristan wrote:Jump mods have not been beneficial to the game and have instead reinforced the 'if you can get on top of a rooftop you can close out the game' mentality Having started to use the 3xComplex Myo's I can say that their jump height is just perfect. It'll allow them to get on top of the large containers, but nothing more. Where they need a bit of a nerf, though, is their stamina usage. Double it, and the perpetually jumping jacks problem is reduced to people with bio exclusively, meaning no armour or shields to speak of. Ehh... this isn't technically correct and would not really work... Thing is, jumping has a percentage based stamina cost, so it doesn't matter how many myo's you got on you're still going to incur the same penalties. Those stamina costs get higher based on how much you jump in a certain amount of time to make it so that you can only jump a pre-determined amount, regardless of how much stamina you have. It's been tested quite a few times and you can even test it yourself right now. Make a fit, throw on a bunch of complex cardiac regulators on your fit, and jump around. You'll still only be able to jump a few times, despite having 300-500% more stamina. That and I honestly don't see why they should sweeping changes that are counter intuitive. It's like when they added shield recharge delay penalties to shield extenders... Makes absolutely no sense. Jump mods would be made fundamentally worthless if they eat too much stamina and it doesn't make much sense for that to happen anyway. Honestly, I don't see a good argument for nerfing them. People hate them, absolutely, that goes without saying, but there aren't many (if any) clear cut reasons WHY they should be nerfed apart from general gameplay preference. Some people just don't like having to engage their enemy in a 3D environment, I guess. Well allot of the hate comes from a few specific things. 1. Single shot weapon or burst users who are so used to dance dance revolution cant shoot up lolz. Automatic weapons have a waaayyy easier time shooting jumpers outta air. 2. Its their most repeated combination mass driver flaylock plasma high dmg weapons that before their drawback for being able to do so much dmg was that they were circumstantial weapons that needed high ground myos remove that drawback which I can understand but im 50/50 on balancing those weapons to match myos the way they r now. 3.melee dmg now this one certain people complain about now because myos are in more use but theyve always done high dmg n could one shot allot of suits. Before though u needed to stack at least 4 or 5 which is impractical. melee kills is low compared to jump kills or any other for that matter. Its not easy does require skill n people who hp stack n have a high alpha dmg weapon think they can charge a corner cuz guess what expect to win cuz they r trying to abuse fotm. Yeaaaa u should have to think twice charging in. 4. Minjas -_- now this one I can agree with hate on people defending the ability to melee n be able to cloak right back up right away is no different then y cloaks were nerfed to begin with because of still being cloaked while shotgunning. Its a stealth tool not an assault cloak. I honestly dont think u should be able to melee while cloak equipped. I use myos but honestly it costing more stamina to jump for each myo doesnt sound unreasonable. Jumping without myos really doesnt have allot of purpose besides dodging a bit. so considering the jump height it costing more stamina seems honestly fair not to mention complex myos dont cost much cpu or pg compared to other modules
Lol, so first it was bunny hopping (hence the stamina cost being percentage based that gets higher for subsequent jumps) and now it's jumping at all. It's getting kinda ridiculous. Like, I'm sorry that myos are a convenient counter to people who refuse to consider a battlefield as anything other than a two-dimensional plane, but let's be real with ourselves here. Has anyone actually stopped and looked at how much stamina cost is -already there-?
If the stamina costs are any higher you're pretty much making it so that a single jump means you are completely unable to sprint. Like, barring the obvious in that you'd be limited to maybe one or two jumps before having to rest... I dunno, it seems like it's way too harsh. Jumping in and of itself has the same stamina cost across the board and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't stack cardiac regulators and suddenly be able to jump more often. You can't recovery stamina while in mid-air. There is a delay before you begin to recover stamina whenever you hit the ground, and just as well (and probably the most damning argument against this) is that your ability to melee -at all- is tied to stamina as well.... I do think it is unreasonable, honestly.
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