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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.31 17:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
let's see. Where's my list?
We begin with the radar. that thing which covers 120m, yet the dropsuits you use have a passive scan range that doesn't reach out and touch the inner ring. Now let's add all of the EWAR BS on top of that simple fact.
There's most of the alternative high and low slot utility neutralized right there.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.31 18:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Bradric Banewolf wrote:Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone.
I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.31 19:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Bradric Banewolf wrote:Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults And what do you run in those low slots? If you're running the same thing as nearly everyone else, 9/10 times it will be brick-related modules. Why is brick so dominant? Should it be?
I never mix shields with armor. You gimp yourself if you run full brick. There should never be any stigma associated with using 1-3 slots for HP mods.
That's all I ever need. Usually I run 2.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.31 22:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why exactly do HP mods need nerfing?
Almost all of the other mods suck. There's little to no value in using them.
If this weren't the case we might see more.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 15:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:.
Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety.
No nerfing armor plates won't make the other mods attractive because they're pieces of crap. Damps aren't more than peripherally useful and are this side of worthless for sentinels.
Scan range mods? They're a joke.
Oh wait! How about lots of armor reps?
...
The only things useful more than peripherally and for special tasks that require an alternate method in the lows are: the three plates. Kincats. Cardiac regs for wierdos like me who prefer marathon running to sprinting.
Since regulators are only really useful on caldari and minmatar suits?
Right.
Yes, nerfing plates will absolutely solve a problem of undesirable low slot mods.
Buff the mods. This idea is the lazy, low-effort, no reward route.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 15:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
None of the other low slot mods are particularly useful to any role but scout.
There will be no change in fitting meta.
The only thing the suggestion accomplishes is nerfing all of the other roles.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 15:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either.
They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all.
They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable.
Those arguments cut both ways.
This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:
go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad.
Adipem is pretty much to scouts what I am to AV sentinels.
Right now his bias is bleeding onto the floor.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either.
They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all.
They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable.
Those arguments cut both ways.
This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react. "Don't nerf Armor ... because Scouts"^ Is this really your reasoning? Come on, Breakin. You can do better. Dig deep.
My reasoning is there is no benefit to the playerbase at large except for scout players to be had in this idea.
So no, not "because scouts."
And the post was in response to your assault rifles bit and the cheap shot at the people running for CPM 2. That argument cuts both ways Mr. "No, scouts are fine."
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:
go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad.
Adipem is pretty much to scouts what I am to AV sentinels. Right now his bias is bleeding onto the floor. http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php^ Take a peak at low-slot module utilization. That's what imbalance looks like. Explain for me how my bias caused that imbalance to happen. Explain for me why my bias should prevent us from fixing that imbalance.
Because market data is the only barometer of how things are working.
Until there are alternative modules that have value to assaults, Logis, Commandos and Sentinels, there is no benefit to nerfing plates the way you want.
All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:
How do you purpose we balance tanks?
Even though I've actually submitted a solid proposal I still, to this day DESPISE this question. Precisely because of the fact that no matter what answer you come to it will fcking polarize the community sharply and screaming will run nonstop.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases.
If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them?
Until the Scan/damp system isn't "always win/Never win" you can't make them useful. Because no matter what you do, you will never make a heavier suit stealthy enough to get passed by a scout's passive scans. You will always be on the enemy tacnet unless they have no scouts in play.
And even if they don't, if you get caught, you don't have the scout mobility to fall back on. You're dead, because your EHP is 1/3rd everyone else's. And you can't cloak.
If the so-called EWAR system was dynamic and had a functional use for anything but scouts and gallente logis, this might be a different story.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley.
Would you like a link to the proposal?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley.
Would you like a link to the proposal? i've read it, Cat came and asked me my opinion on the subject then linked me the results of all of your debating in some Skype channel, apparently, lol. sounds like a fun channel if it's just number crunching, feel free to throw me an invite.
I'll ask the others if we have room for another. Number crunching only happens when a wild hair gets stuck up one of our asses.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley.
Would you like a link to the proposal? Absolutely. And whatever else we can come up with. Tweaking all else is more risky, but there's no reason not to flesh out the possibilities. Spitballing ... * Slightly buff shield extenders and/or reduce fitting req'ts * Merge shield rechargers, energizers and regulators * Add secondary bonus to Profile Dampeners (perhaps to scan duration when pinged) * Tweak Falloff inner rings so we can restore Range Extenders to 45% * Add secondary bonus to Card Regs (ideas?) * ...
Insert Rickroll here.
And cardiac regs have two bonuses.
One to amount of stamina available.
One to stamina recovery speed.
The militia doubles both your base stamina and your recovery rate.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 16:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
That's the kind of crap I will randomly spitball out adipem.
To clarify, I have little use for naked assertions that something is OP or UP.
For example: armor got buffed in two stages before rattati took over. If I recall correctly, rather than simply buffing armor to come up to shields, both times shields were nerfed.
Rather than nerfing ze plates, perhaps reverting some nerfs bit by bit would help.
Another idea I have for fixing shields would be to normalize all caldari suits to 30 hp/s at the calsent 3/1 recharge delay/depleted delay.
Then normalizing min suits at 25/sec with the current calassault 3/5 delays to bring their shields to higher utility.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety?
Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent.
Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit.
Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options.
Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:
But i'm iffy bout the recharge delay
The only reason I consider the calsent viable is the recharge delays. If it was closer to the assault base recharge then I would be right there with the rest of the universe saying the calsent is trash.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
The other d*ck recommendation I want to make is have reactive/standard plates double all shield penalties and having extenders (and the reinforced extenders) double all armor penalties.
Dual tanking needs to die in a fire.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
It wasn't meant to entice you to switch over. Calsents require a completely different playstyle from the amsent.
It also requires all armor and shield skills maxed for viability. With the amsent you only *need* armor. Shield skills are a bonus.
But rather like playing a minsent requires a different mindset, playing a calsent requires a mindset that doesn't work with any other suit. I'm actually better (and better at killing amarr/gallente sentinels) in the calsent. The minsent is basically a minigun wielding assault.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent. Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit. Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options. Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet. Concerns 1. As far as low slots go, HP is plainly King. Your proposal won't affect that. The status quo will be maintained if not exacerbated on account of dual tanking. HP Creep. 2. We presently observe variety High Slot sales. It seems more probable than not that introducing "really good shield extenders" would hurt more than help with high slot variety. 3. Throwing more HP at the problem will likely widen the viability gap between low HP units and high HP units. As far as we know, Scouts are already underperforming.
1: in my experience, except on sentinels doing AV, damage mods are always the optimal choice on armor builds. People use alternate mods from shield extenders primarily because they really aren't great. You might get two extra bullet impacts per extender. Not much in DUST.
2: See my answer to 1.
3: the flux extenders were balanced to be the answer/equivalent to reactive plates. We treated standard extenders as ferroscale equivalent and the reinforced like plates.
Using Flux would provide the lowest boost to raw HP, instead being intended to boost shield regeneration builds.
The Reinforced extenders make you pay dearly for that extra HP by lengthening the recharge delays and slowing your actual recovery rate. In order for say a calsent running three reinforced extenders to hit it's base regen it has to run a regulator and a energizer.
And "more HP" is awesome.
Until my calsent running three lex mods and a regulator on an AHMG get ahold of you.it can flush out more DPS and kill a suit that's brick tanked faster than anything but a turbo controller scrambler rifle can get through it's shields.
I routinely murder proto amsent and galsents in the cal and min sentinels. The only time the shield mods are better as we have them now is for AV. The 5% mods do jack all for busting holes in tanks.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:
People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these.
Right, it's everyone else's fault that 9/10 low-slots sold are Armor Related. It has nothing to do with Armor. It's all about player mentality. 
I only use armor on my gallente and amarr fits. Not worth it on cal/min fits. And yes, I run everything except galscout and the logis.
Because the galscout is a skinny bobblehead and I rarely have fun playing logi.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Look ma! Epeen!
Hey boot. You saying you're better means jack all. Especially when the topic is balance concerns.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 17:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill.
How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless?
Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance?
Usually is.
And no, skill does not justify imbalance. Nor have I ever used that argument. Or are you talking about boot?
And bluntly usage rates are obvious because armor is the better meta for reasons I've hashed out, you have hashed out, everyone but the people who like to think of cal suits as free KD padding have hashed out.
I am simply of the opinion that bringing the shields up to armor level is the answer.
Bluntly until EWAR gets a total overhaul (the mechanics are trash) there's no value in low slot ewar mods. Stacking lots of reps really has little advantage and kincats are the primary non plate low slot for a reason (I actually prefer cardiacs).
Heavy plates are the mainstay of fatties. That's kind of a necessity.
Reactive and ferros are favored by everyone but me on assaults.
Scouts... I only play scouts for the lulz.
Regulators are as useful as a football bat on armor suits and of marginal utility at best on min suits.
Nothing you do to plates will make any of the alternatives attractive. All that happens is people swap to glass cannon speed fits because sprint sped mitigates damage via escape.
Without a better variety of mods in both the highs and lows you will never see assault,commando and sentinel players give up the HP.
Damps are nominally useful on calassaults only because sometimes you don't want to stack triple regulators, but usually kincats are the better choice.
All because range mods for ewar are trash, so making a detection fit suit is pointless. And damps can only get under an STD scanner.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback.
Allow me to say it better.
Market data bereft of kill/spawn and average fitting data is the equivalent of trying to determine which company to invest in by watching what people buy at the grocery store.
By itself there isn't enough data to make a determination, merely determine that there is some kind of trend.
It does not address WHY there is a trend. Nor does it provide any of the variables needed to determine a break point.
It is information in a vacuum, bereft of real content or context with which to see the wheole picture.
No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:
Usage rates is literally how ratatti balanced weapons after he did the dps vs range method.
Sooooooooooooo
Nice work latching onto one of his comments in a statement and igniring every other part of it.
Bravo.
Since you're latching onto that particular point of stupid, I see no reason to take you seriously any further. Have fun.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever.
And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.)
Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3
Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got.   Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I?
You are only more right than I am in your own opinion.
The solution is increasing the viability of alternative options, not nerfing the viable options until the garbage dumpster bits look more attractive.
That's my point.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 18:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work.
You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 19:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work.
You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. There are lots of good high-slot modules; extenders already rank highest among them; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots.
That idea gimps amsent and galsent. They are dependent upon plates. All amarr and gallente are dependent upon plates. If caldari should be allowed to hot-rack shields, not allowing the same for plates in the lows on armor suits is an inexcusable double standard.
Plus the only people who fully max their lows with plates are sentinels with a logi rep leash shoved up their ass.
Without the logi it is completely and utterly nonviable
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 19:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work.
You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. There are lots of good high-slot modules; extenders already rank highest among them; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots. That idea gimps amsent and galsent. They are dependent upon plates. All amarr and gallente are dependent upon plates. If caldari should be allowed to hot-rack shields, not allowing the same for plates in the lows on armor suits is an inexcusable double standard. Plus the only people who fully max their lows with plates are sentinels with a logi rep leash shoved up their ass. Without the logi it is completely and utterly nonviable Are you talking about Heavies only? Assaults, Logis and Scouts can't run straight shield extenders; they're too resource intensive; can't fit anything else. Assuming this were in fact going to gimp AM/GA Sents, why not: * Increase Heavy Base HP * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate Thoughts?
Logi and scout aren't built for stand and deliver.
Let's review the three nerfs of shields that accompanied the armor buffs.
1: extenders got a delay nerf.
2: either extenders got a fitting nerf or the cal suits ate a fitting nerf. Can't remember which.
3. Recharge delay and depleted delay got nerfed.
Simpler to fix those three things than rebalance plates I would think.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 20:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield?
Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use.
The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits.
This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days.
You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot.
Better to make the other sh*t equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 20:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sh*t equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. So ... Despite the fact that we've managed to achieve diversity everywhere else in the game, we will not be able to do so with low slots. The vast majority of low-slot modules sold will always be brick-related, and we just have to deal with that. Can't fix it. Our very best bet at mitigating the lack low-slot diversity is to decrease high-slot diversity. This doesn't make practical sense to me, Breakin.
I say, let Armor Modules remain the very best low slot modules. Let them be awesome, but make them somewhat less awesome than they are now. Like we did with MinAssaults. And make 'em tougher to fit. This way mercs will be encouraged to mix things up, rather than stack the same "best module" over and over again. This makes more practical sense, right?
Hilariously you're more stubborn than I am.
Done arguing. Nephew wins.
Call me when you bring something new to the discussion.
I'm not playing merry go round with you when you roll back around the same couple points no matter how many flaws and faults I find in the logic.
What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety.
Unfortunately that's not a strong enough reason for a nerf
It's especially not worth nerfing half the suits when a few simple and basic buffs to the other suits would accomplish the same goal. It would take as much work to buff shields as to nerf armor. It's all database number changes.
And you have yet to explain why fitting a kill suit for maximum durability and destruction or maneuverability is bad.
I'm getting bored with the assertion that plates need to be nerfed because... :reasons:.
And those reasons are unclear and not compelling. You're also repeating arguments you have repeated multiple times. Repeating them more will not compel me to support your position.
This is falling into the realm of discussing vehicle balance with soraya or spkr4thedead. The only difference is the discussion is a thousand times more civil.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 21:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. Guess i just am a harsher poster? Somehow, i remember you being a bit rougher in dealing with people who constantly post the same opinion hoping it changes. And this finally comes true, lol.
Spkr's ban expired.
I'm saving my vitriol for his usual raft of crap.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 21:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:
Then why not buff the other low slot mods? Decreases fitting costs for kin cats is an example, fixing ewar and scouts in general will encourage usage of ewar mods. Card regs can have additional bonus, I don't know which but something useful
Absolutely an option.
and a much better one.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 21:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety.
Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement.
That's not good enough justification to nerf something.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.01 21:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Shadowed Cola wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:
What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety.
Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos. http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php^ Click Modules. If my understanding is correct, "Electronics Modules" is the combined sales of Dampeners, Precision Enhancers, Range Extenders and CPU Upgrades. Comparatively speaking, Armor Plate usage looks like Scout usage following Uprising 1.8. HP is very much still King.
Still not justification to nerf something.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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