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Ice Royal Glantix
0.P.
223
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Posted - 2015.07.20 07:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
This most recent update was supposed to make it possible for corporations without districts to simply attack other corporations districts and "keep what they kill" without actually trying to take the districts. I have heard that some corps try to "raid" like this over and over again to make profit. Is this actually worth it? Would this be a good way to be PC active without having to actually own your own districts? Or is it strictly better to just play PC the normal way?
"Solitude is not a burden; it is a gift, for independence allows us to realize our own potential."
Glantix / Ice
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deathly assassin
0.P.
30
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Posted - 2015.07.20 08:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:This most recent update was supposed to make it possible for corporations without districts to simply attack other corporations districts and "keep what they kill" without actually trying to take the districts. I have heard that some corps try to "raid" like this over and over again to make profit. Is this actually worth it? Would this be a good way to be PC active without having to actually own your own districts? Or is it strictly better to just play PC the normal way?
Would be best with districts our only problem is that everyone won't stop attacking us if we become a raiding corp we would be negative in isky
~Deathly Tis My Name,Slaying is My Game~
Official 0.P. Mascot
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
7
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Posted - 2015.07.20 08:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's a different way to play--involves more guile and back channeling. This is not the way to go for strictly playing the ISK war (yes, you will go positive by running militia sniping/forge gun suits, but not very much. The defenders will likely incur lesser losses than you anticipate, probably a net profit, when they get a large salvage table back plus the 500 DK payout).
Instead, your rewards as a raider are currently more emotional and less tangible. Your job as a raider under the current mechanics are to condition the enemy for various types of light attacks; then proceed to flip the meta by employing different tactics or open your battle platoons as a proxy for other fighters. You play shell games, and push their logistics capacity to organize their members for various theaters of battle. They must always assume you (the raiding corp) is bluffing.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.20 10:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote: Or is it strictly better to just play PC the normal way?
The game makes no distinction between a Raid and a PC Attack. The major differences between PC 1.0 and 2.0 from the "would-be-Raider" perspective are (1) clone packs are earned through activity rather than purchased for Isk and (2) losers no longer earn 0 Isk on defeat; if my understanding's correct, your side gets paid (equally) based upon whatever it destroys.
Holding land, provided you can blue up and defend it, is a reliable source of Isk. Whether or not successful Raiding will make financial sense (as an alternative to holding land) remains to be seen. See Jadek's post above.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Count- -Crotchula
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2015.07.20 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
it will take time and more than 1 raiding corp
step up to the plate if you have the man-power and let's make this interesting. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.20 10:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Count- -Crotchula wrote:
step up to the plate if you have the man-power and let's make this interesting.
@ Jadek, Pirates, Raiders
Someone (XD) suggested that things might get more interesting if we began to coordinate our Raids by attack timer. Thoughts?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
7
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Posted - 2015.07.20 11:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Count- -Crotchula wrote:
step up to the plate if you have the man-power and let's make this interesting.
@ Jadek, Pirates, Raiders Things might get more interesting if we began to coordinate our Raids by attack timer. Thoughts?
That's what I'd prefer to see happen. Currently Xer is at 13,000 CP.
I will continue to give incentive for members to build CP and recruit to Xer, while major corporations are welcome to join on alts to place attack orders and recruit our high CP earning members.
Everybody gets content at every stage of play. Xer Cloud Consortium, while a raiding corp, is designed a community resource.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
75
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Posted - 2015.07.20 11:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Personally, If I ran a raiding corp I would contract myself out to one the super powers in Molden Heath. That is really were your profit lies. You become a burnout mechanic (which is a big concern for top corp's especially during war)
The question to ask is this: Do we really want players burning out in PC? |
deathly assassin
0.P.
35
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Posted - 2015.07.20 11:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI wrote:Personally, If I ran a raiding corp I would contract myself out to one the super powers in Molden Heath. That is really were your profit lies. You become a burnout mechanic (which is a big concern for top corp's especially during war)
The question to ask is this: Do we really want players burning out in PC?
Players getting burned out is a very important thing because if all your pc players get burnt out there goes the isky income
~Deathly Tis My Name,Slaying is My Game~
Official 0.P. Mascot
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
7
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Posted - 2015.07.20 12:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
deathly assassin wrote:ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI wrote:Personally, If I ran a raiding corp I would contract myself out to one the super powers in Molden Heath. That is really were your profit lies. You become a burnout mechanic (which is a big concern for top corp's especially during war)
The question to ask is this: Do we really want players burning out in PC? Players getting burned out is a very important thing because if all your pc players get burnt out there goes the isky income
I believe what he implies is these players stop playing Dust altogether...which may mean a potential revenue stream loss for CCP.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
7
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Posted - 2015.07.20 12:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI wrote:Personally, If I ran a raiding corp I would contract myself out to one the super powers in Molden Heath. That is really were your profit lies. You become a burnout mechanic (which is a big concern for top corp's especially during war)
The question to ask is this: Do we really want players burning out in PC?
Now that clonepacks depend on CP to initiate, it's important for these 'super powers' in Molden Heath to improve their espionage and intelligence gathering division. If you can find a way to recruit all the members from these raiding corps, you've effectively stymied their ability to burnout your members with throwaway battles. At the same time, more recruits can fuel your wartime operations.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.20 12:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:This most recent update was supposed to make it possible for corporations without districts to simply attack other corporations districts and "keep what they kill" without actually trying to take the districts. I have heard that some corps try to "raid" like this over and over again to make profit. Is this actually worth it? Would this be a good way to be PC active without having to actually own your own districts? Or is it strictly better to just play PC the normal way?
I would say that profitability is possible but is crappy. I have reserved judgement on that as I think that the DK market will be the turning point on that. Realistically tho any corp who can make a profit against an established PC corp is just going to end up owning a district so as a way to be a part of PC without district holding I would say that raiding needs work.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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DRT 99
RAT PATROL INC.
438
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Posted - 2015.07.20 13:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote: [the PC corp] get a large salvage table back plus the 500 DK payout).
thats honestly even more punishment for them. let ALL the militia garbage clutter their assets! ALL OF IT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And let them keep their valueless Donkey Kong currency |
Alaika Arbosa
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.07.20 14:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
DRT 99 wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote: [the PC corp] get a large salvage table back plus the 500 DK payout). thats honestly even more punishment for them. let ALL the militia garbage clutter their assets! ALL OF IT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA And let them keep their valueless Donkey Kong currency
You say this now, but what happens when CCP adds something worthwhile to the DK market?
I won't dodge another silver bullet
Just to save a little face
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.07.20 14:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:DRT 99 wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote: [the PC corp] get a large salvage table back plus the 500 DK payout). thats honestly even more punishment for them. let ALL the militia garbage clutter their assets! ALL OF IT! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA And let them keep their valueless Donkey Kong currency You say this now, but what happens when CCP adds something worthwhile to the DK market?
Well, at that point they will break the game just a little bit more, because you know anything worthwhile(i.e. not just cosmetic) will immediately be used to stomp pubs.
PSN: RationalSpark
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saxonmish
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
1
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Posted - 2015.07.20 14:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:This most recent update was supposed to make it possible for corporations without districts to simply attack other corporations districts and "keep what they kill" without actually trying to take the districts. I have heard that some corps try to "raid" like this over and over again to make profit. Is this actually worth it? Would this be a good way to be PC active without having to actually own your own districts? Or is it strictly better to just play PC the normal way?
we just take and sell on i like it, theres no pressure to win cos its free :)
SAXON ON A MISH - My Youtube Channel :)
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Aidualc
LATINOS KILLERS CORP
RUST415
474
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Posted - 2015.07.20 15:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Raiding need a little tweak ...
A new command in the planetary menu: Raid
Only 80 clones deployd (same as ambush)
Raids launch attack ... 1 or 2 hours before the timer of the District... and alert - mail to the corp... (suspect warbarge near the district, 2 hours until contact or something like that)
You don't know who attack you... (i'ts a surprice, so you allways be preparate...)
If defender corps win (almost 99% of cases) 48 hours locket the raiding in the district.
If defender corps loose... (1%).... Raiders Steal some clones of the district and sell it to isk gain. (more reward)
And to the new corps who wants a district and don't wanna raid. 175 deployd clones for 25,000 CP. and 24 hours to attack.
-- Ecce Initio -- Tomate Pote --
**Respectu, Honorem, Value, Unionem****
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Aramis Madrigal
0uter.Heaven
456
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Posted - 2015.07.20 15:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
In order to turn a real profit, I imagine you would have to be a sufficient threat to warrant the defender running proto, while you run apex/ADV. If you manage to flip running apex/ADV, you then sell off any excess clones generated, perhaps leaving enough to run a harassment defense in apex/ADV to again profit. This suggests that raiding isn't an entry level endeavor.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Right now, players are not entirely sure if it is profitable to raid a district like this mainly because we don't have anything available in the District Market. We have the kredits but nothing to buy. On top of that, we don't even know what the district market will offer. We are still waiting on CCP Rattati to let us know on that.
In the meantime I don't mind raiding just for the sake of causing some grief. A lot of players in Eve Online often ask themselves this same question when a high-sec ganker sacrifices his/her ganker ship just to destroy a mining ship in high-sec without a war declaration or aggression timer. Miners were like "What's the point? They are losing ISK doing this and they can't collect on the insurance and what little loot they can salvage from my wreck won't cover their loses."
To this, many high-sec gankers have responded by organizing some sort of crowd source-like funding where players donate ISK to fund these operations while at the same time establishing some sort of fee for a "mining permit" where a miner has to pay 10 million ISK to mine safely in high-sec or else The Code will come in and gank their mining ships until they pay up. This has enabled them to maintain a profitable operation that can sustain them for a long time. And since many of the donors happen to be well established players who are likely to have a stable source of income of their own and probably a lot of ISK to throw away, it doesn't seem that The Code will go away anytime soon.
A similar meta game can happen with Dust and I'm glad to see Jadek Maneheim trying that out with XERCC. It's still in its infancy but I see potential here and this might become the blueprint for future attempts in district raiding. Dust University is also diving into raiding and we are about to raid our third district pretty soon. So far we've been stomped on pretty hard and had our clone teeth kicked in as well, but at least we are learning to get better with each new attempt.
Dust University is not the end-all-be-all corp anyways. We are a learning corp after all and we encourage new players to go find a better corp if they feel that they have grown beyond what D-UNI can offer.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
7
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Thanks Maken, you've given me an idea to tune the Xer system better for extortion. 
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Thanks Maken, you've given me an idea to tune the Xer system better for extortion.
Anytime.
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Smoky The Bear
THE SMOKIN GUNZ
Dark Taboo
243
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aidualc wrote:Raiding need a little tweak ...
A new command in the planetary menu: Raid
Only 80 clones deployd (same as ambush)
Raiders launch attack ... 1 or 2 hours before the timer of the District... and alert - mail to the corp... (suspect warbarge near the district, 2 hours until contact or something like that)
You don't know who attack you... (i'ts a surprice, so you allways be preparate...)
If defender corps win (almost 99% of cases) 48 hours locket the raiding in the district.
If defender corps loose... (1%).... Raiders Steal some clones of the district and sell it to isk gain. (more reward)
And to the new corps who wants a district and don't wanna raid. 175 deployd clones for 25,000 CP. and 24 hours to attack.
This sounds good.. I am interested in becoming a raiding corp, but instead of trying to make it profitable by using militia ...why not make a merc channel where people can hire us to spend our cp's on a raid?
I think 12 hours or less warning makes most sense.. This way
We can possibly disrupt their plans for other battles.. Has to be worth it and has to affect the defenders in a real and substantial way |
SLENDER M4N
Xer Cloud Consortium
796
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jadek have we started something?
Get ready Jadek. Mrs. Menahiem is waiting!
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Leither Yiltron
Molon Labe.
1
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Posted - 2015.07.21 04:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ice Royal Glantix wrote:This most recent update was supposed to make it possible for corporations without districts to simply attack other corporations districts and "keep what they kill" without actually trying to take the districts.
This isn't precisely true. What the changes were meant to do, and I think they've succeeded in doing, is lowering the barrier to entering PC. Primarily that has been through a reduction of ISK cost. But you're really never going to be able to make good profit you don't somehow threaten a win.
Even if you go into a battle with worse gear than your opponent's in an attempt to make money, there's almost no way to prevent savvy opponents from changing into cheap stuff after they push you into the red line. In the worst case scenario for them, you bust out a bunch of proto and push them a little bit before they switch back up in gear tier. But you'll never win like that against a competent team, because you're already way behind on positioning and MCC damage.
You've gotta try to win if you expect your better opponents to try to win. That's all there is to it. If you play an honest game against someone like, say, NF, you can do that now at a cheap price and no doubt they'll give you a good fight.
Have a pony
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Jadek Menaheim
Positive-Feedback.
7
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Posted - 2015.07.21 12:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Thanks Maken, you've given me an idea to tune the Xer system better for extortion.
After giving it some thought, the Code approach to permits and extortion doesn't really work for me and it has been done in the past during the blue doughnut/DNS era. I would like to move forward with something new, that is also unique only to Dust.
Presenting the sale of loaded CP corporations
This enhances the 'raid pc' approach by giving starting and established corps the ability to launch mass attacks (or multiple self locks, or even test events) by purchasing a corp with 100,000 CP already accumulated.
Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
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