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[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 05:41:00 -
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Reading around on the forums, i recently found a problem with not just DUST, but FPS games as a whole : The revival system is completely unused, and for good reason.
The problem? not only do medics with revival tools often have to kill the enemy that killed their combat-focused buddies, but the system forces you to revive in the exact spot that proved to be dangerous enough to get the guy shot in the first place! It doesn't take Patton to know that just doesn't make military sense. A true medic gets the casualty OUT of the battle to heal them, rushing into it to help the fallen only results in the death of the medic.
The answer? The Medevac system. This new system takes two forms : a modified revive tool, and vehicles that can revive more efficiently. Nano injectors will still exist under the system, but now pressing R1 grabs the target so you can drag/carry them to cover (with one or both using sidearms), a second press revives instantly. Once revived, the solder has about 10-50% health depending on medic skills/equiment, after which medic can heal them on their own. Medevac vehicles can either be a module or a variation of transport vehicles (dropships or hopefully APCs). These vehicles can either tractor the casualty onboard for care, or help a medic get them onboard faster. Once onboard, the vehicle reivives them after a set amount of time. The advantage is that the vehicle can heal multiple soldiers at once, and heals them to full health. This also lets soldiers be redeployed where they are truly needed.
This new system has a new focus of getting the soldier out of the fight so he can become more than a paper-tanked distraction to the enemy on return, saving his precious ISK/AUR while the medic gets WP and a new role.
This isn't just a suggestion. It's righting a currently-unrealistic wrong present ever since the concept of "revive" reached First-Person Shooter games. |
[Veteran_TheAmazing FlyingPig]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 06:56:00 -
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While it looks like a good idea, wouldn't this thing be a swarm magnet the second someone spots the RDV carrying it in? |
[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 07:22:00 -
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TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:While it looks like a good idea, wouldn't this thing be a swarm magnet the second someone spots the RDV carrying it in? Very true... of course, if CCP decides to use this, by the time theyre implemented ECM systems will already be in the game, allowing even undertanked vehicles some survivability. Medevacs could also be made to only carry previously-wounded troops in exchange for thicker defenses. After all, almost no combatant has ever abided the Geneva Convention by not shooting such vehicles. |
[Veteran_Orin Fenris]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:01:00 -
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The thing is, in an FPS, game flow is important (at least to me?)
This would heavily break flow. It's so much easier for the logi (not medic) and his party (why the hell would a logi be alone?) to clear the area, pick you up and keep moving.
This isn't the trenches, this is the future :P this is also a video game, and we need to stop getting these ideas that just because everything is based on EVE, which is based on a logical possibility (almost everything is somewhat explainable), doesn't mean that CCP are aiming to make this a "realisitc" shooter. They want it to be fun more than anything else. It's a damn video game, not a war simulation. In fact, I dare say there isn't a game on the market today that can be called a proper "war simulator", as nothing can quite simulate the feeling of having bullets whiz by your head and you know that if you catch one, it will probably mean the end of you. no respawns, no next games, thats it. soooo.. yeah.
This is DUST 514. You go down, a logi picks you up, or you suicide and respawn. thats how it works. |
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:40:00 -
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Smaller steps for bigger results.
Make Nanite Injectors a sidearm slot item so people actually carry them
Give all people carrying the injector or any other revive ability a special symbol on both the minimap and the field.
Make it easier for medics to find the injured
Let people burn at least part of their respawn counter while bleeding out so people actually wait for at least a few seconds
Pick 2 and call it a day! |
[Veteran_zapfrog ghaldaris]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:23:00 -
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Waruiko DUST wrote:Smaller steps for bigger results.
Make Nanite Injectors a sidearm slot item so people actually carry them
Give all people carrying the injector or any other revive ability a special symbol on both the minimap and the field.
Make it easier for medics to find the injured
Let people burn at least part of their respawn counter while bleeding out so people actually wait for at least a few seconds
Pick 2 and call it a day!
Excellent points, much like BF3 where you see on the screen where the downed troops are. |
[Veteran_Matrix Owner]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:35:00 -
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This feature will be used much more in organised corp matchs.... especially if they make it easier to find downed friends...
At the moment in open gameplay though, it doesn't make sense, why take up a config slot, pay isk for nanite injectors for people you don't know when you get no direct benefit, you may as well just give the ISK away. |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 16:11:00 -
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I'm glad someone else feels revives are bad.
However, I feel they need to be removed from the game, not turned into an easymode feature to cheapen death, like you are suggesting. You are proposing an even easier, yet time consuming way to make death mean nothing in dust :( As orin says above, this does nothing but break the flow of the game and cut the pace of the game. I sure would rather respawn and run back in the time it takes for some logi to drag my corpse around before he hits me with a magic needle.
Dust is a game where death has meaning, and 'consequences'. Revives do nothing but cheapen that, and while they work (Horribly broken for balance) in other games, I don't feel that have a place in dust. If someone dies they should be dead. No retry, no do-overs. You die, you go back to the spawn screen. If you want to get back in the fight in the same area, make sure someone on your team has a drop uplink. That's how it should be, in my opinion. |
[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 16:14:00 -
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Another way to fix it would be instead of having the medic having to run out and hope they didnt bleed out give the person on the ground mor of a thought that they are still alive mabye let them crawl out of the line of fire this may lead to the medics being able to patch them up with out having to deal with the person who in capacitaed them not only that but this would leave for the enemy to have to try to finish of there targets so they dont get them coming in again .
Should the shooter be credited with a kill if they dont finish the target off?? if so if he kills him again does he get like a double kill
Should a revived soilder still have a death against his name?? Tecknicly while i reckon he should not he is tecknicly still alive but this in combination with the theretical double kill can lead to a exploit of stat padding. |
[Veteran_Bob Deorum]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 16:57:00 -
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Nova Knife wrote:I'm glad someone else feels revives are bad.
However, I feel they need to be removed from the game, not turned into an easymode feature to cheapen death, like you are suggesting. You are proposing an even easier, yet time consuming way to make death mean nothing in dust :( As orin says above, this does nothing but break the flow of the game and cut the pace of the game. I sure would rather respawn and run back in the time it takes for some logi to drag my corpse around before he hits me with a magic needle.
Dust is a game where death has meaning, and 'consequences'. Revives do nothing but cheapen that, and while they work (Horribly broken for balance) in other games, I don't feel that have a place in dust. If someone dies they should be dead. No retry, no do-overs. You die, you go back to the spawn screen. If you want to get back in the fight in the same area, make sure someone on your team has a drop uplink. That's how it should be, in my opinion.
if this was a normal fps I would agree with you but it is not and you pay for what you use so in this case I would much rather have medics being able to heal. to be honest it is win win situation for everyone, if he is healed you can kill him again, you still get points no matter how many times he dies so if the medic is dumb enough to not clear the area first and heals him only to both get killed then plus for the attacker. but on the other side like I said I am paying for my gear so I wanna have the ability to really survive in a game but not break the game so there are no kills. |
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[Veteran_Kavela Menardi]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:24:00 -
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Im a RPer, and even before I had gotten into Beta I had been thinking on what I wanted to do with my character, and part of it was simply to be a medic. When I got into beta the first thing i looked for on the market was how to make this happen and I found the nano-injector and trained for it, only to find it useless.
Its not that the injector is broken, that heals need to be more effective or that we need a "medi-vac" as simply put a logi is a walking medivac. You have your nano-hive, nano-injectors and a droplink you are a one man first aide station for players and their guns, the issue is, no one knows you are there and you dont know where a person has fallen.
Fix THAT issue and you have Medics. If you know im around, you wont hit the O button as readily and if I know where you are I can get to you. My Logi may not have the best armor, but I have a gun, I can kill just as easily as be killed and I will make the effort, CCP just needs to give me the tools to do so.
As far as a "medivac" goes, a simple tractor beam and DS mounted nano-injector would do rather then a new vehicle. Simply fly over the injured player, "pick him up" with the tractor and the onboard medical injectors will revive whislt the pilot GTFO, leaving the injured to jump out when ready. |
[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 20:07:00 -
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Orin - Making sure the game is not too realistic is fine. However, in some cases it's good to borrow from reality. as for "thats how it works" its more like "you go down, either the medic ignores you (too dangerous) or you ignore him (Why dun pplz has jectorz?) and suicide". Do we need a fix? Yes. Is it my idea that works? Nobody knows, not even me.
All others - I too would like being able to see who went down and who is the medic. Actually this change combined with actual teamwork would nullify my drag/carry suggestion, i was thinking more about the all-too-common solo medic (WTH!?!?). I like kavela's tractor/nano injector module idea, however don't forget that CCP made a ship for almost every situation in EVE, so they'd probably make medevac T2 vehicles as well, with bonuses. Either way, vehicles stick out like sore thumbs, and while the teammates are on the revive timer they wouldn't be able to jump out and kill that swarmer / forge gunner, which is part of the balance. |
[Veteran_Sorry Accident]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 09:57:00 -
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Kavela Menardi wrote:Im a RPer, and even before I had gotten into Beta I had been thinking on what I wanted to do with my character, and part of it was simply to be a medic. When I got into beta the first thing i looked for on the market was how to make this happen and I found the nano-injector and trained for it, only to find it useless.
Its not that the injector is broken, that heals need to be more effective or that we need a "medi-vac" as simply put a logi is a walking medivac. You have your nano-hive, nano-injectors and a droplink you are a one man first aide station for players and their guns, the issue is, no one knows you are there and you dont know where a person has fallen.
Fix THAT issue and you have Medics. If you know im around, you wont hit the O button as readily and if I know where you are I can get to you. My Logi may not have the best armor, but I have a gun, I can kill just as easily as be killed and I will make the effort, CCP just needs to give me the tools to do so.
As far as a "medivac" goes, a simple tractor beam and DS mounted nano-injector would do rather then a new vehicle. Simply fly over the injured player, "pick him up" with the tractor and the onboard medical injectors will revive whislt the pilot GTFO, leaving the injured to jump out when ready. This. 1000 times, this. |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 11:01:00 -
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@ Above post. No. Just... No.
Before this build, we had repair tools. Ranged modules that work exactly like logistics in eve. Press button, send health. They got taken out to be tweaked, and we will have those back next build. Nanite injectors were put into this build as both an experiment and to 'fill the void' left by repair tools being gone. They were never meant to be a primary function of the logistics suit.
Being a 'medic' you should be preventing people from dying, not giving them a free retry after they managed to get themselves killed! Repair tools are how a logi is supposed to function as support. Reviving makes death less meaningful in a game where every death is supposed to have consequences and be tied to resources.
Pick up one of the Aurum Logistics suits. They still have their customized repair tools as an oversight from when they were removed from the market. They can repair two targets but are way less effective than the ones that were available for isk because of it. You'll see what I mean when I say that's how logi is meant to be played, none of this easymode revive crap! |
[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 04:20:00 -
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@nova I'm not arguing about replacing the repair tool with this, or giving every soldier a retry. Headshots, overkills and grenades will still knock you cold. Also, it's quite simple to shoot the limp guy being pulled to the meatwagon, despite protective shielding. I already mostly recanted on the nano injector change, as DUST's problem here is more about teamwork. As for vehicles, the medical tractor could shut off the turrets while active, rendering it a sitting duck while pulling in the soldier. Again, teamwork is key to pulling this off, which in this universe could save good merc corps millions. |
[Veteran_Nova Knife]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 04:28:00 -
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Why? It seems like a waste of resources both of the dev's and in lore. They're immortal clones. They're disposable. Half of the technology you are using is lethal to the clone anyways, like drop uplinks. Radiation and such in lethal doses.
Revives are unnecessary as it is. The medivac is a cool idea, but it's just an example hyperbole expanding on something that is inherently a waste of time. |
[Veteran_Commsnipes16]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 04:41:00 -
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I say borrow from MAG because it worked perfectly. Make the medkit a secondary item and make it easily accessible. If it takes 4-5 buttons to access it, players will more hesitant to use it, especially in the heat of battle. Reviving in MAG literally took 1 second to do. Simple and efficient so players were willing to use it since it wasn't a hindrance. Also make it worthwhile. Maybe 50 points for a pick-up. Furthermore, make it easy. I'm not going to train for it. Make it accessible right from the get-go so players can start using it. If it's accessible, players will use it. If they have to work for it, they'll say it isn't worth the effort.
Another good thing was that it was really obvious where fallen team mates were. They would have a red bar above them which indicated how much time you had to reach and revive them before they bled out. Another thing was that it would say how much distance there was between you and them. It was really good because it was right in your face as to where people needed reviving and gave you enough info as to whether the trip would be worthwhile or not. |
[Veteran_Velikar Breakage]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 05:39:00 -
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How do you even use the nano injector? I bought it and I just run around with it having no clue what to do.
But medicing should definatley become easier in this game, because it's an important role on the battle field. I was thinking of making a "gun" that revives shields quickly for people, for each second of reviving, the "medic" would get 15 points. So the medic would run behind a group of soldiers and "spray" any team mates with their shields being damaged. |
[Veteran_Alliria Seedspawns]
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:02:00 -
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No to making Logi easier.
Being a serious logi should require specialization, just as a tank requires specialization, and a serious sniper needs specialization, and a serious HAV or Dropship operator needs specialization, etc. I really like the idea that trying to be mediocre or average at multiple things will not be beneficial - that you need to specialize to become truly effective. You make it too easy to be a logi, and then everyone will carry the repair tool, taking away the prestige of being a good logi.
After trying a few things in Dust these past few weeks, I've found that I'm not a very good vehicle driver (never was in any game really), chain gun heavy is a damn good defensive combo, and just like in Eve, logistics is where it's at for me. I am very much looking forward to the return of the logi tools, and am looking forward to the go live date where everyone will be wiped, and I can start my permanent specializing. |
[Veteran_Sha Kharn Clone]
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:12:00 -
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Nova Knife wrote:I'm glad someone else feels revives are bad.
However, I feel they need to be removed from the game, not turned into an easymode feature to cheapen death, like you are suggesting. You are proposing an even easier, yet time consuming way to make death mean nothing in dust :( As orin says above, this does nothing but break the flow of the game and cut the pace of the game. I sure would rather respawn and run back in the time it takes for some logi to drag my corpse around before he hits me with a magic needle.
Dust is a game where death has meaning, and 'consequences'. Revives do nothing but cheapen that, and while they work (Horribly broken for balance) in other games, I don't feel that have a place in dust. If someone dies they should be dead. No retry, no do-overs. You die, you go back to the spawn screen. If you want to get back in the fight in the same area, make sure someone on your team has a drop uplink. That's how it should be, in my opinion.
Nope dont agree. Take the time to put two in the head after you drop them, Simple now they dead. If can be assed to finish the job they should stand a chance to get medical help. |
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