DUST Search - CCP Rattati wants to change all the suits. Nice.

Operative 1174 Uuali wrote:

THUNDERGROOVE wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Isa Lucifer wrote:

Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP.

"Necessity is the mother of invention.

Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources

I still think it's a good idea for them to attempt to lower the memory usage of Catma.

The problem is the way they generate the Catma database.

They have a utility written in C# that converts some folder structure that writes it into a Python object using an embedded Python implementation. From what I can tell it has an inheritance system to make adding new "skinned" or differently named versions and make changing only one attribute not requiring all the children types.

The Python object, catmaDB, is exported as a pickle and sent to clients as synchronizations along with other pickles. Adapter data, localization, etc..

One way they could easily lower the memory footprint without using any skin or power core system would be to add type inheritance to Catma directly. For example:

Let's say we have our 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1. Instead of it containing in it's type the same attributes that a normal Scout G-1 does we could instead have only a few differences.

we could have the following attributes:

parentType: TypeID of a type to base all of it's attributes off of.
mDisplayName: A string with the different name; in this case it's 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1
mDescription: A different description.
CCP's internal texture/coloration attributes that I won't post

In short the system would copy references to the attributes and apply the actual types attributes over the references allowing overriding of already in use attributes.

This would shave off tons of memory without exposing the end users to any change at all except fewer frame drops due to garbage collection.

Why aren't you working for CCP? Oh yeah, CCP's short sighted and you're not Icelandic.

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KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.19 07:00:00 - [1] - Quote Got a nice notice from Twitter via @CCP_Rattati: https://pawenspursuits.wordpress.com/2015/05/17/dust-514-from-the-ashes-or-rather-dust/ The weird short URL link is available directly from CCP_Rattati's twitter feed: https://twitter.com/CCP_Rattati Top of his list as of ~0700 UTC. Do we have a link in the forums about this? I didn't spot it, of course that may be because I didn't figure out the subject line. Since they want how much real world cash (38K AUR?) to reset when they trash the last year or more of effort. I would like to see what the real input is versus the warm and fuzzy link about ashes and dust. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 248	Posted - 2015.05.19 07:58:00 - [2] - Quote Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Amarr Victor Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8	Posted - 2015.05.19 07:59:00 - [3] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention. Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2015.05.19 13:08:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention. Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources Couldn't agree more. Move it to the PS4, port it to the PC and let people keep their accounts/merge them into a CCP account. No reason to stop supporting the PSN, but put it on something that has some grunt to it.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.19 20:31:00 - [5] - Quote Krias Thracian wrote: Couldn't agree more. Move it to the PS4, port it to the PC and let people keep their accounts/merge them into a CCP account. No reason to stop supporting the PSN, but put it on something that has some grunt to it. Normally this is where I step in to explain the technical challenges of your suggestion. Although I won't expand on them please note they are massive challenges. Switching to UE4 (available on PS4/Xone/PC is a definite challenge (the entire scripting model changed, that is a lot of work for most games). I have yet to read any tech article about a successful upgrade from any developer. Maybe this will work out. While CCP Rattati has been mostly positive all of his actions to date have come with a sharp backhand. The myofib hack is still quite irritating. I still see Mercs at 30+m, although killing them is very rewarding it is too rare an occurrence. My biggest concern is CCP. Getting hosed is the de facto standard for Mercs in Dust. No doubt this will happen, there is a link inside the article to the forum thread, it didn't show clearly on my display so I missed it the first time through. How will the animation simplification work? Indeed, can they make it work? How many oddball features that would normally be classified as bugs in any other game be left in for months at a time? Probably a boat load. Swapping out the entire high/equip/low slots to a new solution ... let's just say I doubt that it will go smoothly. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.19 23:46:00 - [6] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=202616 is what that blogpost is talking about really. Basically due to the way that dust is coded every dropsuit is different entity entirely. This idea allows us to use 'the same' racial models, flavored with skins and then have powercores provide the 'stats' for them. I know I'm explaining this poorly, but the gist is that 'little actually changes from how it is, aside from maybe us getting tiericide and a ton of memory is freed up'. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.20 00:32:00 - [7] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=202616 is what that blogpost is talking about really. Basically due to the way that dust is coded every dropsuit is different entity entirely. This idea allows us to use 'the same' racial models, flavored with skins and then have powercores provide the 'stats' for them. I know I'm explaining this poorly, but the gist is that 'little actually changes from how it is, aside from maybe us getting tiericide and a ton of memory is freed up'. IE Better performance, and the opportunity for more new things. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.20 01:05:00 - [8] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=202616 is what that blogpost is talking about really. Basically due to the way that dust is coded every dropsuit is different entity entirely. This idea allows us to use 'the same' racial models, flavored with skins and then have powercores provide the 'stats' for them. I know I'm explaining this poorly, but the gist is that 'little actually changes from how it is, aside from maybe us getting tiericide and a ton of memory is freed up'. IE Better performance, and the opportunity for more new things. Yet I still suspect it will not go smoothly. The method is well known in the industry. Any game that likes to offer skins or custom visualizations (not animations) will typically use this technique. It isn't necessary in PC games, at least for high end systems. It does make many games more playable on laptops (which is what the level of performance the new consoles are at). My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.20 20:19:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention. Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources I still think it's a good idea for them to attempt to lower the memory usage of Catma. The problem is the way they generate the Catma database. They have a utility written in C# that converts some folder structure that writes it into a Python object using an embedded Python implementation. From what I can tell it has an inheritance system to make adding new "skinned" or differently named versions and make changing only one attribute not requiring all the children types. The Python object, catmaDB, is exported as a pickle and sent to clients as synchronizations along with other pickles. Adapter data, localization, etc.. One way they could easily lower the memory footprint without using any skin or power core system would be to add type inheritance to Catma directly. For example: Let's say we have our 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1. Instead of it containing in it's type the same attributes that a normal Scout G-1 does we could instead have only a few differences. we could have the following attributes: parentType: TypeID of a type to base all of it's attributes off of. mDisplayName: A string with the different name; in this case it's 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1 mDescription: A different description. CCP's internal texture/coloration attributes that I won't post In short the system would copy references to the attributes and apply the actual types attributes over the references allowing overriding of already in use attributes. This would shave off tons of memory without exposing the end users to any change at all except fewer frame drops due to garbage collection. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.20 20:27:00 - [10] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: It isn't necessary in PC games, at least for high end systems. Except it's the best way of doing it. Instead of patching local files it's much easier to generate an encoded data structure and have clients download this as a means of changing the way individual items behave. Of course in a PC environment you have to handle people tapering with the file either on disk or in memory. Which isn't easy. The best way of doing so would be to have very good server-side checks to verify the clients aren't doing anything too fishy. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.

Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 726	Posted - 2015.05.20 21:17:00 - [11] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Or in this case, "Taking advantage of a man (game company) when he's down". CCP's fowl up has been our opportunity to improve the game and be listened to more intently. The CPM candidate we need, not the one we want. The candidate for the rest of us.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 727	Posted - 2015.05.20 21:20:00 - [12] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention. Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources I still think it's a good idea for them to attempt to lower the memory usage of Catma. The problem is the way they generate the Catma database. They have a utility written in C# that converts some folder structure that writes it into a Python object using an embedded Python implementation. From what I can tell it has an inheritance system to make adding new "skinned" or differently named versions and make changing only one attribute not requiring all the children types. The Python object, catmaDB, is exported as a pickle and sent to clients as synchronizations along with other pickles. Adapter data, localization, etc.. One way they could easily lower the memory footprint without using any skin or power core system would be to add type inheritance to Catma directly. For example: Let's say we have our 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1. Instead of it containing in it's type the same attributes that a normal Scout G-1 does we could instead have only a few differences. we could have the following attributes: parentType: TypeID of a type to base all of it's attributes off of. mDisplayName: A string with the different name; in this case it's 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1 mDescription: A different description. CCP's internal texture/coloration attributes that I won't post In short the system would copy references to the attributes and apply the actual types attributes over the references allowing overriding of already in use attributes. This would shave off tons of memory without exposing the end users to any change at all except fewer frame drops due to garbage collection. Why aren't you working for CCP? Oh yeah, CCP's short sighted and you're not Icelandic. The CPM candidate we need, not the one we want. The candidate for the rest of us.
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 267	Posted - 2015.05.21 08:46:00 - [13] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Lets see what happens. Dust 514 will be on the ps3 for a couple of years thanks to innovation from the community and CCP. "Necessity is the mother of invention. Now imagine what could be done with actual system resources I still think it's a good idea for them to attempt to lower the memory usage of Catma. The problem is the way they generate the Catma database. They have a utility written in C# that converts some folder structure that writes it into a Python object using an embedded Python implementation. From what I can tell it has an inheritance system to make adding new "skinned" or differently named versions and make changing only one attribute not requiring all the children types. The Python object, catmaDB, is exported as a pickle and sent to clients as synchronizations along with other pickles. Adapter data, localization, etc.. One way they could easily lower the memory footprint without using any skin or power core system would be to add type inheritance to Catma directly. For example: Let's say we have our 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1. Instead of it containing in it's type the same attributes that a normal Scout G-1 does we could instead have only a few differences. we could have the following attributes: parentType: TypeID of a type to base all of it's attributes off of. mDisplayName: A string with the different name; in this case it's 'Dragonfly' Scout G-1 mDescription: A different description. CCP's internal texture/coloration attributes that I won't post In short the system would copy references to the attributes and apply the actual types attributes over the references allowing overriding of already in use attributes. This would shave off tons of memory without exposing the end users to any change at all except fewer frame drops due to garbage collection. Why aren't you working for CCP? Oh yeah, CCP's short sighted and you're not Icelandic. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.21 23:38:00 - [14] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: I still think it's a good idea for them to attempt to lower the memory usage of Catma. This would shave off tons of memory without exposing the end users to any change at all except fewer frame drops due to garbage collection. How did you discover this? I have yet to find an article discussing their internal workings. They obviously are understaffed. Many problems with the patches/hotfixes/releases would never had been seen with proper procedures. Such as source code control and documented release protocols. It works in systems much more complex than simple gaming software. A significant portion of which they didn't actually write. So we cannot blame them for UE issues. Its limitations sucks in other games as well. My concerns are the same. Without someone that understands project management (as in software project management) drives this then we are at the receiving end of their learning curve. Being at the receiving end of anything with CCP at the other does not bode well. If you ever actually get their ear, please kill the freaking RDV. It is universally hated. It wastes an incredible amount of resources to generate the navigation map pre-release while being best described as not complete junk. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 04:08:00 - [15] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: Why aren't you working for CCP? Oh yeah, CCP's short sighted and you're not Icelandic. I would have actually applied for a recent opening but I have no formal CS degree. I've had recruiters on multiple occasions contact me about jobs and internships and all of them stop emailing back after I tell them I only have a Highschool diploma KalOfTheRathi wrote: How did you discover this? I have yet to find an article discussing their internal workings. Dumping my PS3's hardrive and decrypting it using my console keys. I spent weeks going through all the files eventually found out that SDAT files that are shipped as full patches can be decrypted using the free game license stored in your PS3. Opened the output files in a hex editor and noticed that the files had the same header of zip files. Turns out they're zips that you can add to sys.path (python) The zips contained all the Python code for DUST. No raw source just Python bytecode. Ran it through Uncompyle2. Spend awhile digging through the Catma internals and learned a lot. It's a really neat implementation and it's good at what it does. Just not as efficient as it could be. KalOfTheRathi wrote: My concerns are the same. Without someone that understands project management (as in software project management) drives this then we are at the receiving end of their learning curve. This all entirely depends. So long as the person who is in charge of management as a whole(The one who gets yelled at when **** hits the fan) is willing to accept mess ups and learn from it then it's alright in my book. Learning from mistakes is a far better method that being lectured about it. I used to never write tests until I learned how much time it saves in the long run. All the time wasted figuring out what portion of my programs don't work would be better off running my tests and figuring out which one(s) fails. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 05:01:00 - [16] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: This all entirely depends. So long as the person who is in charge of management as a whole(The one who gets yelled at when **** hits the fan) is willing to accept mess ups and learn from it then it's alright in my book. Learning from mistakes is a far better method that being lectured about it. I used to never write tests until I learned how much time it saves in the long run. All the time wasted figuring out what portion of my programs don't work would be better off running my tests and figuring out which one(s) fails. Very good work on your part. That is much more effort than I would ever put into it. Well, I grouse about it on the forums and explain why their math is wrong. Cause it is. Don't forget that UE3 is not a horrible solution. It is very efficient overall and had many years of development. It has been left behind by the industry but the natural replacement for Dust514 was UE4. Which the lying dogs at Epic Games never released for the PS3 and were at least five years late releasing at all. It was started in August 2004. Still a bit of pig in certain areas. Of course, if I could send you $20US and you could get a month license and download the source. Just sayin. ;-) I always write test cases. Nearly of my own work is command line. Or ncurses displays on terminals or terminal emulators. UIs waste too many resources and I am heavily into maximum performance. My translators can parse any file in the Linux kernel so quick I finally gave up trying to make them faster. Opening, reading and closing the file actually takes longer. I only have a two-year degree. I got hired as a software technician and was promoted to software engineer. One of my first big jobs, besides the ever present device drivers, was an automated testing system for the basic I/O (asynchronous) system on our real time kernel. Back in the old days. It was fun to write. When the engineers wanted a particular test run, I would type in the parameters at the console, let it run and we would do software engineering on the whiteboard while the computer ground out the answer. I don't think they ever knew how completely automated it was. I left and consulted for 13 yrs only to go back one more time. I was a software manager and senior sw engineer. One of the facts I learned that was tough personally is how far out of most companies are for doing the job correctly. Too many in management have no idea at all, while many modern CS grads barely understand anything besides Java and C++. Put a real time kernel under their butt and they would fail. Tight efficient code, secure, safe and robust. Otherwise, your big fancy computer controller rig is a useless pile of parts. Then I retired, so no big sheet of parchment for me. In fact, my friends actually talked me out of it. I always wanted one and thought I could go back when life was less hectic. They were right though, I never would have put up with the crap the professors were selling for either business information or CS. I can't, I am just not built that way. If something is wrong I will tell you it is wrong. I don't mind being wrong myself, but I hate knowing that something is wrong and nobody is fixing it. Yet, I am still playing Dust. Who knew? When MOG (see my foot locker posts) releases on PS4 I will probably move there, my old corp looks like they are headed there. Back to full squads of 12 and two in a platoon. Fun times. I just have to get a PS4 at some point. Ick, spending cash. I'm retired, they should give me one. Someone should. Good luck out there. With your dedication somebody will wake up and hire you. PM me if you want to converse about SW and such. I have two spare PS3s that are destined for linux. That and spares for the current gaming system. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 06:19:00 - [17] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: words.. It all started because I simply wanted the information from the SDE that CCP didn't provide. One could call it drive? In regards to a job in the field; I would say that I'm far more experienced than most my age. I'm only 19. I work in mainly C/Go and Python(as little as possible; dynamic typing is disgusting). I like being as platform agnostic as possible. I've worked on all kinds of personal projects and even contributed to a lot of major open source projects yet most companies would rather hire some idiot who barely made it through their CS program to get a bachelors with no actual experience than someone who has actually worked on projects used by thousands of people and understands code-reviewing and test writing. Sure I may not have the best math background but I'm smart enough to figure it out. I currently(actually laid off until August/September) work as a stage technician in a theater doing primarily live sound. It's cool and all but writing useful software is what I prefer doing. We will see as time goes on though. This is getting way way off topic though If you do have any questions about the internal workings of DUST; I've looked into more than Catma so just feel free to ask. Mace yourself, blame someone else itGÇÖs okay, no one will believe you AIV member.
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana 860	Posted - 2015.05.22 07:02:00 - [18] - Quote Can we vote THUNDERGROOVE in as a dev? No Skill Required
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1	Posted - 2015.05.22 08:26:00 - [19] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: words.. Well, I sent you email in game. I will probably ping you in PSN next time I'm on. Heading off to MOG now. Let's talk. Your open source work may not open a door today, but it certainly could in a year or so. There are a couple of places you might be able to offer your services for indie game work. Some will pay, some might pay a percentage (useless for credit but good on resumes) and there is always the Unity Market as well. Plus plays are filled with actresses (warning they want to be called actors), but they are still girls/women - possibly unattached) so there's that. Also, have you been watching Jonathan Blow's youtube channel? He is developing a new gaming language because C++ sucks so badly. Seriously. I little unnerving for me to watch but he has some good ideas at the basic level. And, as a actual game developer he seems to know where the performance is critical and where it really doesn't matter. Later, KR My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.


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