DUST Search - is logistics a little to skillpoint heavy?

Kavela Menardi wrote:

Big wrote:

Kavela Menardi wrote:

Keep in mind that this is a vital role once you start to have a team that cares about you and that you care about. Right now Logi feels to expensive because team work is a joke in beta (not being able to team with people you know from Eve can have this effect). When the game goes live, or at the very least you are able to form squads, roles will become more vital.

As to the notion that "no one ever wants to play the white-mage",not really the case with Eve players. While I dont think there are to many dedicated Guardian Pilots or Scorpion Pilots, support pilots are in no short supply. They are everywhere and most pilots who have played for a year or more have some form of support role for their corps way of doing combat....or even for their way of mining.

Yes it is a painful climb, and when actual training times come into play its going to be worse, but it is vital and it wont be underplayed.

But let us keep in mind here, we are talking about a LOGISTICS DROPSUIT here.

which should cost less than a LOGISTIC LAV

which should cost less than a LOGISTIC DROPSHIP

which should cost less than a MARAUDER

just like guardians cost less than carriers that cost less than supercaps etc~

Are guardians a 12X? skill?

Well actually your logic fails (and no im not trolling you) in that a Guardian costs what 125 million vs the 3 million it costs to fly a vanilla version of that craft. Then you start talking about Logi specific kits, implants and so on and you are talking about something that could cost on par with an unfitted carrier. Of course my logic fails there assuming that but you understand the case.

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[Veteran_Buzzwords] 0	Posted - 2012.06.05 20:36:00 - [1] - Quote a simple question, but an important discussion... in my experience, most players are loath to play any kind of supporting role in... well, pretty much any game, but shooters especially. "i'm not spec'ed for that" "i don't wanna be the medic *****" (i literally smacked that person on the back of the head. yes that conversation happened irl.), "well ANYBODY can repair stuff" (then why don't you?) "I'll go, but not if i have to play white mage" (yah i went off genre for that one) any of those sound familiar? so does this critical role really need such a high barrier for entry, when it's already hard enough to find those noble souls willing to fore-go the glory of uber 1337 dude-bro assaultness? as of right now logistics are the most expensive suits to skill for, and they/we will still need to train for the tools themselves. the nano-hives, the drop uplinks, the repair kits, the nano-injectors, and whatever else i'm forgetting at the moment.... and that's disregarding a gun worth shooting and shields or armor that can take more than a stiff breeze... (they also cost a little more isk-wise if i'm remembering correctly) now i'm aware ccp will be adding logistics as a new starter fit, and i hope that will include a militia logistics suit that the rest of us can buy. but do the other logistics suits need to be locked behind a 12X skill? thoughts? counterpoints? new info i'm unaware of to ease my fears?
[Veteran_PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME] 0	Posted - 2012.06.05 21:00:00 - [2] - Quote Buzzwords wrote: a simple question, but an important discussion... in my experience, most players are loath to play any kind of supporting role in... well, pretty much any game, but shooters especially. "i'm not spec'ed for that" "i don't wanna be the medic *****" (i literally smacked that person on the back of the head. yes that conversation happened irl.), "well ANYBODY can repair stuff" (then why don't you?) "I'll go, but not if i have to play white mage" (yah i went off genre for that one) any of those sound familiar? so does this critical role really need such a high barrier for entry, when it's already hard enough to find those noble souls willing to fore-go the glory of uber 1337 dude-bro assaultness? as of right now logistics are the most expensive suits to skill for, and they/we will still need to train for the tools themselves. the nano-hives, the drop uplinks, the repair kits, the nano-injectors, and whatever else i'm forgetting at the moment.... and that's disregarding a gun worth shooting and shields or armor that can take more than a stiff breeze... (they also cost a little more isk-wise if i'm remembering correctly) now i'm aware ccp will be adding logistics as a new starter fit, and i hope that will include a militia logistics suit that the rest of us can buy. but do the other logistics suits need to be locked behind a 12X skill? that requires a good deal more dropsuit command as a pre-req than assault or scout? (and if memory serves, even more than heavy?) thoughts? counterpoints? new info i'm unaware of to ease my fears? this weekend after I get drop suit command 5 i'll be training up a logistics suit.
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST] 0	Posted - 2012.06.05 21:56:00 - [3] - Quote I got my hands on the Galente Logi LAV the other day and my review of what it is, how it works, and its actual use can be found here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19883&find=unread
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 00:50:00 - [4] - Quote Just over 3mil SP for Lvl 5 Logi suit skill(Working on it atm). 12x Multiplier is painful. Drop it to 10 maybe? Seems to be waaaaaayyyyy bigger multipler than other suits? Though what are pilot and command suits going to be like.
[Veteran_Cong Zilla] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 01:00:00 - [5] - Quote It is a bigger multiplier because it is a bigger asset. People have to keep in mind that the planetary conquest game and the public match game are going to play VERY differently.
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 06:31:00 - [6] - Quote Bigger asset than a tank?
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 06:45:00 - [7] - Quote Keep in mind that this is a vital role once you start to have a team that cares about you and that you care about. Right now Logi feels to expensive because team work is a joke in beta (not being able to team with people you know from Eve can have this effect). When the game goes live, or at the very least you are able to form squads, roles will become more vital. As to the notion that "no one ever wants to play the white-mage",not really the case with Eve players. While I dont think there are to many dedicated Guardian Pilots or Scorpion Pilots, support pilots are in no short supply. They are everywhere and most pilots who have played for a year or more have some form of support role for their corps way of doing combat....or even for their way of mining. Yes it is a painful climb, and when actual training times come into play its going to be worse, but it is vital and it wont be underplayed.
[Veteran_LL92] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 06:49:00 - [8] - Quote The heavy dropuits multiplier is the same one than the logistic one... But I don't think logistic dropsuit are equivalent to heavy dropsuit. In my mind, a 8x or x10 multiplier seems more correct. This dropsuits is currently underutilized. But obviously the teamplay in the beta is a big joke. Agreed with that, Kavela!
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 06:54:00 - [9] - Quote Kavela Menardi wrote: Keep in mind that this is a vital role once you start to have a team that cares about you and that you care about. Right now Logi feels to expensive because team work is a joke in beta (not being able to team with people you know from Eve can have this effect). When the game goes live, or at the very least you are able to form squads, roles will become more vital. As to the notion that "no one ever wants to play the white-mage",not really the case with Eve players. While I dont think there are to many dedicated Guardian Pilots or Scorpion Pilots, support pilots are in no short supply. They are everywhere and most pilots who have played for a year or more have some form of support role for their corps way of doing combat....or even for their way of mining. Yes it is a painful climb, and when actual training times come into play its going to be worse, but it is vital and it wont be underplayed. But let us keep in mind here, we are talking about a LOGISTICS DROPSUIT here. which should cost less than a LOGISTIC LAV which should cost less than a LOGISTIC DROPSHIP which should cost less than a MARAUDER just like guardians cost less than carriers that cost less than supercaps etc~ Are guardians a 12X? skill?
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:02:00 - [10] - Quote Big wrote: Kavela Menardi wrote: Keep in mind that this is a vital role once you start to have a team that cares about you and that you care about. Right now Logi feels to expensive because team work is a joke in beta (not being able to team with people you know from Eve can have this effect). When the game goes live, or at the very least you are able to form squads, roles will become more vital. As to the notion that "no one ever wants to play the white-mage",not really the case with Eve players. While I dont think there are to many dedicated Guardian Pilots or Scorpion Pilots, support pilots are in no short supply. They are everywhere and most pilots who have played for a year or more have some form of support role for their corps way of doing combat....or even for their way of mining. Yes it is a painful climb, and when actual training times come into play its going to be worse, but it is vital and it wont be underplayed. But let us keep in mind here, we are talking about a LOGISTICS DROPSUIT here. which should cost less than a LOGISTIC LAV which should cost less than a LOGISTIC DROPSHIP which should cost less than a MARAUDER just like guardians cost less than carriers that cost less than supercaps etc~ Are guardians a 12X? skill? Well actually your logic fails (and no im not trolling you) in that a Guardian costs what 125 million vs the 3 million it costs to fly a vanilla version of that craft. Then you start talking about Logi specific kits, implants and so on and you are talking about something that could cost on par with an unfitted carrier. Of course my logic fails there assuming that but you understand the case.

[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:11:00 - [11] - Quote I got it and found out it gives you 3 equipment slots... That is 3 sets of Remote Explosies... I kid. They seem to have the most options in fitting their suit. They can provide 3 types of support instead of just one. I know I would like to have a Logi near by with a Nanite Injector when i am using my most expensive loadout.
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:38:00 - [12] - Quote Kavela Menardi wrote: Big wrote: Kavela Menardi wrote: Keep in mind that this is a vital role once you start to have a team that cares about you and that you care about. Right now Logi feels to expensive because team work is a joke in beta (not being able to team with people you know from Eve can have this effect). When the game goes live, or at the very least you are able to form squads, roles will become more vital. As to the notion that "no one ever wants to play the white-mage",not really the case with Eve players. While I dont think there are to many dedicated Guardian Pilots or Scorpion Pilots, support pilots are in no short supply. They are everywhere and most pilots who have played for a year or more have some form of support role for their corps way of doing combat....or even for their way of mining. Yes it is a painful climb, and when actual training times come into play its going to be worse, but it is vital and it wont be underplayed. But let us keep in mind here, we are talking about a LOGISTICS DROPSUIT here. which should cost less than a LOGISTIC LAV which should cost less than a LOGISTIC DROPSHIP which should cost less than a MARAUDER just like guardians cost less than carriers that cost less than supercaps etc~ Are guardians a 12X? skill? Well actually your logic fails (and no im not trolling you) in that a Guardian costs what 125 million vs the 3 million it costs to fly a vanilla version of that craft. Then you start talking about Logi specific kits, implants and so on and you are talking about something that could cost on par with an unfitted carrier. Of course my logic fails there assuming that but you understand the case. Kavela carrier hulls cost 1.4b now :( But you get my point hehe. IMO The Logistics Dropsuit should be starting point of a logistic player's carrier and not the be-all-end-all(like the 12x sp modifier seems to suggest). I've not used the logistic dropsuit, but I'll assume it has more or less dropsuit-level survivability ie: tougher than the scout, somewhat less tough than the assault. That puts it around auguror level survivability in EVE terms. IMO the SP cost needs to be balanced to the relative toughness of the unit as well. You see this in EVE: you'll never find a class of frigate that costs 12x to train. Of course there will be some exceptions, but In dust it's all around the place: the Marauder(toughest unit in the game currently) takes less SP to train than a advanced heavy dropsuit.
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:48:00 - [13] - Quote Big i think you and I are saying the same thing with one of us putting an (!) at the end of our sentence and the other one putting a (?) at the end of it.
[Veteran_Rasatsu] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:48:00 - [14] - Quote The corporations that do have people specced for logistics will stomp those who don't, just like in EVE where logistics is also costly to train for. Working as intended.
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 07:51:00 - [15] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: The corporations that do have people specced for logistics will stomp those who don't, just like in EVE where logistics is also costly to train for. Working as intended. WAIAFU (working as intended all fugged up) seems to be the Eve version of FUBAR!
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:14:00 - [16] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: The corporations that do have people specced for logistics will stomp those who don't, just like in EVE where logistics is also costly to train for. Working as intended. But it's not. Logistic cruisers are a x6 skill that only require racial cruiser V. The only really important support skills are Energy Emission Systems and Remote Armor/Shield reps. They're not costly to train for. Neither are they costly. People just don't like to train them because you can't do missions in them(at least soloboxing!)
[Veteran_CCP Wolfman] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:38:00 - [17] - Quote Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:46:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check)
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:48:00 - [19] - Quote Big wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check) Wait one sec, I have the logi dropsuit, but I dont have DSV... are you sure you guys are accurate on the requirments or did you read of an update i missed?
[Veteran_Big] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:53:00 - [20] - Quote Kavela Menardi wrote: Big wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check) Wait one sec, I have the logi dropsuit, but I dont have DSV... are you sure you guys are accurate on the requirments or did you read of an update i missed? no off memory, seem to remember it requiring at least IV or V which put me off training it totally. Why pay so much SP to support, when I can pay a little to steamroll? :)

[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 08:54:00 - [21] - Quote Big wrote: Kavela Menardi wrote: Big wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check) Wait one sec, I have the logi dropsuit, but I dont have DSV... are you sure you guys are accurate on the requirments or did you read of an update i missed? no off memory, seem to remember it requiring at least IV or V which put me off training it totally. Why pay so much SP to support, when I can pay a little to steamroll? :) As it stands now, to get into the entry level suit, Dropsuit One. To get into the next level 4 then proto 5. The suit you are thinking of is now the Heavy.
[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 10:54:00 - [22] - Quote Big wrote: Kavela Menardi wrote: Big wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check) Wait one sec, I have the logi dropsuit, but I dont have DSV... are you sure you guys are accurate on the requirments or did you read of an update i missed? no off memory, seem to remember it requiring at least IV or V which put me off training it totally. Why pay so much SP to support, when I can pay a little to steamroll? :) You probably shouldn't pay all that. But you can stay off my team with a mentality like that. FYI I plan on going logi no matter the cost. In fact, I'd be fine if they left it 12x. It should be more difficult to get in, just because of people like you who don't want to be team players. I sure hope all my enemies are as self-centered as you. It'll make my job a lot easier. :P Sorry if I seem brash, but really, the higher the requirements for something, the more rewarding it is to wear it. If you see someone in a logi suit keeping their team mates alive, you know they spent a long time to get there. My only concern is Logi being too squishy. In EVE, you have cap chains, and backup logi to keep each other alive. I am EXTREMELY interested to see how they make remote logi work in DUST without broadcasts etc. if my fellow logi is getting hit, i'd like to know, and be able to respond before he gets waxed, leaving me next in line for the chopping block (as I would assume logi are going to be all but defenseless in combat) but I'm sure CCP has it all figured out :)
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 16:11:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Ok a little lower than i would have expected, but ok sounds good will see how many sp need for that this weekend. Out on interest though, does that mean i will get some SP reimburst as the overall amount needed to put into the skill will drop and i already have it to lvl 4?
[Veteran_Kushmir] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 17:21:00 - [24] - Quote well said, Orin. going to be going Logi in retail as well. hell, i hope all the steamrolling guys overlook it. does seem a little squishy at the moment tho.
[Veteran_Cantus] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 17:33:00 - [25] - Quote Kavela Menardi wrote: Big wrote: CCP Wolfman wrote: Hi The logistics dropsuit will be lowered to X8 in the new update :-) CCP_Wolfman Will it still require dropsuit command V?(iirc, games down can't check) Wait one sec, I have the logi dropsuit, but I dont have DSV... are you sure you guys are accurate on the requirments or did you read of an update i missed? I have the Minmatar Logi dropsuit, but I don't have Dropsuit Command V. Then again, it's only the Standard DS that I have. You're probably talking about the prototypes.
[Veteran_Eldorlon Tharn] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 18:53:00 - [26] - Quote I have seen some really good tank-commanders (or whatever we call them) that can keep 1 tank up and running for almost, if not an entire battle.... trying to take out tanks working in pairs is a pain..... so throw in 2 logis on each tank to keep it even further tanked..... bad idea.. thats my thought about the skill heavy logi
[Veteran_Anonymous Mercenary] 0	Posted - 2012.06.06 23:20:00 - [27] - Quote Also Logi doesn't necessarily mean you can only be a healer/repair bot. E3 play vids showed some pretty bitching damage orientated logi loadouts. Extra equipment slots means more room for demo gear and gadgets. Sounds like my kinda suit.
[Veteran_Bob Deorum] 0	Posted - 2012.06.07 02:49:00 - [28] - Quote Big wrote: [quote=Kavela Menardi][quote=Big] no off memory, seem to remember it requiring at least IV or V which put me off training it totally. Why pay so much SP to support, when I can pay a little to steamroll? :) and that is the problem right there :p that mentality. hahahaha
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi] 0	Posted - 2012.06.07 04:17:00 - [29] - Quote How did i get rolled into that quote?


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