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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5932
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Posted - 2015.04.19 21:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
A new blog available over at Biomassed.net
The Importance of Player Involvement in Game Design
It's a bit of a read, but relevant. It has been nearly a year since CCP Rattati took his position as head of the DUST team. That being said I felt it would be appropriate to take a look back at where we came from, where we are, and where we are going in terms of player involvement in the design process. Feedback is always welcome and as always we appreciate you taking the time to read.
Have a great day!
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2093
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Posted - 2015.04.19 21:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey for next community 'manager'!
I have cows that show more intelligence than some of you.
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
3842
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Posted - 2015.04.19 22:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Player involvement in development is good. However I still have to wonder, without too much bitterness or annoyance, how much development does this game have left? Assuming IWS isn't pulling the wool over our eyes and DUST hit the PS3 limit for memory, how much more can we expect to see? The new tanks are re-skins because of this issue. Hell, even if it was the worst way of announcing something short of announcing pregnancy by showing the broken condom, Legion set that point home. "We can't do what we wanted on the PS3." So I have to wonder, again without too much anger, "can there be meaningful development on a game that has ~4,000 active players and is on a system that probably won't be supported in 18 months?"
I like Biomass and "That little s**t Pokey" but this seems like a massive love letter to Rattati, at least parts of it. I remember what it was like BR (Before-Rattati) but thanking the company that you are paying for their product for actually 'caring' falls into a trap. I like Rattati; he definitely cares about the game and seems like a nice guy but remember that he is "a man" and "The Man."
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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Ahkhomi Cypher
Opus Arcana
805
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Posted - 2015.04.19 22:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
If we had like a Student Government or something and Pokey ran id probably vote for him.
Class of 514!!!!!!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
SHOTS!!!SHOTS!!!SHOTS!!!SHOTS!!!SHOTS!!!
No Skill Required
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5935
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Posted - 2015.04.19 22:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
I like Biomass and "That little s**t Pokey" but this seems like a massive love letter to Rattati, at least parts of it. I remember what it was like BR (Before-Rattati) but thanking the company that you are paying for their product for actually 'caring' falls into a trap. I like Rattati; he definitely cares about the game and seems like a nice guy but remember that he is "a man" and "The Man."
I won't deny that much of what Rattati has done is to my liking, and I feel he deserves praise for that. However there is still much that needs to be done to improve the Developer/Player connection. Between what we had, and what we have now, the difference is staggering, but by no means perfect. Regardless this drastic shift in philosophy has left me far more hopeful that Rattati will be the one to facilitate a more ideal relationship.
A higher level of player involvement is in of itself, a failsafe against "The Man", which is really what I'm looking for. The CPM is a great concept but we need more in addition to that so there is additional checks and balances. Am I making any sense? lol
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Vell0cet
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2977
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Posted - 2015.04.19 22:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Another solid post Pokey.
It's time for CCP to talk about what's next though. There are a few big things coming our way over the next ~6 months (player trading, PC Revamp), but this silence on the long-term future is completely unacceptable. It makes it difficult to want to spend money on this game--especially on stuff that takes time to realize the benefit (e.g. BPOs, Warbarge Upgrades). As you point out, if they're developing Legion in the dark, there is a good chance they will make many of the same mistakes the original team did. I think it's crazy not to invest more money into a port (even at a significant loss). This game has so much going for it; it could really be amazing on modern hardware.
Best PvE idea ever!
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DiablosMajora
106
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Posted - 2015.04.19 23:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Haven't read the Opinion piece yet, but how would you feel about players contributing to the development process by working pro-bono?
Those that can into code, will code. Those that can into art, will art assets. Etc.
Prepare your angus
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5939
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Posted - 2015.04.19 23:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Haven't read the Opinion piece yet, but how would you feel about players contributing to the development process by working pro-bono?
Those that can into code, will code. Those that can into art, will art assets. Etc.
I think that's asking for a bit much. I can't think of a situation where company would be willing to hand that level of control over to a third party which has little to no accountability. The risk is just too great, and doing quality control would probably be as costly as just doing it themselves. Not that I doubt the ability of players, it's just a HUGE liability to a company.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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LOOKMOM NOHANDS
524
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Posted - 2015.04.19 23:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:A new blog available over at Biomassed.netThe Importance of Player Involvement in Game DesignIt's a bit of a read, but relevant. It has been nearly a year since CCP Rattati took his position as head of the DUST team. That being said I felt it would be appropriate to take a look back at where we came from, where we are, and where we are going in terms of player involvement in the design process. Feedback is always welcome and as always we appreciate you taking the time to read. Have a great day!
A good read and I totally agree that player feedback is extremely important.
I have come to feel that the community feedback that happens in Dust is not always the greatest but things have happened that offset even my dislikes towards our current system. With that being said it is evolving as anything new needs to and seems to be really getting on to a good track.
I think Ratatti has seriously advanced CCPs system and I commend him as well as our current CPM on the advances that have been made which I feel like is becoming one of the better feedback systems of any company. I only hope that through growth in Dust and getting people involved in CPM voting that we can continue to evolve the system and see more action similar to what some of our current CPM have brought to the table.
With regards to CPM, I still think the system is somewhat broken because of it being copied from Eve which functions in a totally different way but I hope to see us move beyond those challenges very soon as well. |
DiablosMajora
107
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Posted - 2015.04.19 23:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DiablosMajora wrote:Haven't read the Opinion piece yet, but how would you feel about players contributing to the development process by working pro-bono?
Those that can into code, will code. Those that can into art, will art assets. Etc. I think that's asking for a bit much. I can't think of a situation where company would be willing to hand that level of control over to a third party which has little to no accountability. The risk is just too great, and doing quality control would probably be as costly as just doing it themselves. Not that I doubt the ability of players, it's just a HUGE liability to a company.
That is also understandable, though I'm talking on a much smaller scale.
CCP comes to us and says, "Model some assets for X. Best looking gets theirs put in" kind of thing.
Prepare your angus
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Vicious Minotaur
2311
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Posted - 2015.04.19 23:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Player feedback is unimportant.
Most players suck at life, and give bad feedback.
For instance, my feedback is that Rattati should ignore player feedback.
I am a minotaur.
a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça+üa+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ë
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9549
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:Player feedback is unimportant.
Most players suck at life, and give bad feedback.
For instance, my feedback is that Rattati should ignore player feedback.
Hmmm.
Paradox...
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Scheneighnay McBob
And the ButtPirates
6094
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
The text is glitchy as ****. Sometimes overlapping itself, sometimes being cut off.
I would also like to point out that player feedback is LEAST important in game balance: players tend to complain about their most unpleasant deaths (players in just about every game hate surprise deaths, for instance) rather than what's effective and what isn't.
That's where raw stats need to be looked at before anything else.
Some details can be ignored
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5940
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The text is glitchy as ****. Sometimes overlapping itself, sometimes being cut off.
I would also like to point out that player feedback is LEAST important in game balance: players tend to complain about their most unpleasant deaths (players in just about every game hate surprise deaths, for instance) rather than what's effective and what isn't.
That's where raw stats need to be looked at before anything else.
Some people have been reporting issues with the blog, but reloading the browser seems to fix it.
Also there difference is GOOD player feedback vs BAD player feedback. Q_Q and complaining without logic is BAD feedback. This is the quintessential job of the CPM to filter good from bad feedback.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
9550
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The text is glitchy as ****. Sometimes overlapping itself, sometimes being cut off.
I would also like to point out that player feedback is LEAST important in game balance: players tend to complain about their most unpleasant deaths (players in just about every game hate surprise deaths, for instance) rather than what's effective and what isn't.
That's where raw stats need to be looked at before anything else. Some people have been reporting issues with the blog, but reloading the browser seems to fix it. Also there difference is GOOD player feedback vs BAD player feedback. Q_Q and complaining without logic is BAD feedback. This is the quintessential job of the CPM to filter good from bad feedback.
Plus I think it works best when data and feedback are used together.
Data helps with a lot of things, but it can't tell the whole story. Sometimes getting that feedback helps pinpoint the data to look to in order to gain understanding. It can be a fluid process where both can be used in conjunction with one another.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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LOOKMOM NOHANDS
526
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The text is glitchy as ****. Sometimes overlapping itself, sometimes being cut off.
I would also like to point out that player feedback is LEAST important in game balance: players tend to complain about their most unpleasant deaths (players in just about every game hate surprise deaths, for instance) rather than what's effective and what isn't.
That's where raw stats need to be looked at before anything else. Some people have been reporting issues with the blog, but reloading the browser seems to fix it. Also there difference is GOOD player feedback vs BAD player feedback. Q_Q and complaining without logic is BAD feedback. This is the quintessential job of the CPM to filter good from bad feedbac.
I would argue that this should not be the job of the CPM. This only gives the power to distort things to their own motives.
In Eve CSM have to deal with a pretty high level of accountability while in Dust the CPM deal with little to no ramifications for their actions. That accountability is what makes CSM work and unless Dust evolves to a true open world we are going to need to change course from our current copy of CSM to something that is truly unique to Dust.
With CPM0 we saw people that manipulated the system for their own gains and now CPM1 is doing great work but in my personal opinion being made to look bad by a combination of the silence and certain persons within their ranks. I only hope we see something grow to offset these factors and make the entire setup that we have now grow to its full potential. |
Vell0cet
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2978
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DiablosMajora wrote:Haven't read the Opinion piece yet, but how would you feel about players contributing to the development process by working pro-bono?
Those that can into code, will code. Those that can into art, will art assets. Etc. I think that's asking for a bit much. I can't think of a situation where company would be willing to hand that level of control over to a third party which has little to no accountability. The risk is just too great, and doing quality control would probably be as costly as just doing it themselves. Not that I doubt the ability of players, it's just a HUGE liability to a company.
I agree with your argument with regards to code, but I think they could crowdsource art. The quality control for reviewing art would be a lot easier to handle than reviewing code (uh, sorry that looks like sh*t vs. trying to find an exploit that someone deliberately snuck into an obscure function call).
Best PvE idea ever!
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Thumb Green
The Valyrian Mercenary Army
2288
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Posted - 2015.04.20 00:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:Player feedback is unimportant.
Most players suck at life, and give bad feedback.
For instance, my feedback is that Rattati should ignore player feedback.
Since Rattati has been in charge they've been far more receptive to the player feedback than they ever have since I've been here and the game is arguably in the best state it's been in during that time. We might suck at life and give bad feedback but our input has had more of a positive impact on Dust than the original team working on dust did and they are professionals.
I've got a random blueberry in my corp. Don't know why he wanted to join but I keep him as if he's a pet.
Rated [TV-MA]
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DiablosMajora
108
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Posted - 2015.04.20 15:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:DiablosMajora wrote:Haven't read the Opinion piece yet, but how would you feel about players contributing to the development process by working pro-bono?
Those that can into code, will code. Those that can into art, will art assets. Etc. I think that's asking for a bit much. I can't think of a situation where company would be willing to hand that level of control over to a third party which has little to no accountability. The risk is just too great, and doing quality control would probably be as costly as just doing it themselves. Not that I doubt the ability of players, it's just a HUGE liability to a company. I agree with your argument with regards to code, but I think they could crowdsource art. The quality control for reviewing art would be a lot easier to handle than reviewing code (uh, sorry that looks like sh*t vs. trying to find an exploit that someone deliberately snuck into an obscure function call). For example, I'd love to see drones from EVE be used as small sockets. It would be really cool if people savvy in 3d modeling could extract the small drone models/textures from the EVE client, break them up, make them dirty and arrange the debris in an interesting way on a flat plane. Hell they could make a new map that was mostly flat with lots of small sockets of wrecked drones. Playing in "the drone wasteland" would be so amazing and probably have really excellent performance.
Drone PvE in the drone wasteland
Prepare your angus
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
6316
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Posted - 2015.04.20 18:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
A very good article.
There are a number for very minor copy-edit type problems in there, so you might want to take another read through when you are fresh to see if you can spot and correct them. They are mostly the type of problems you get when you rewrite a sentence and leave out a word, or forget to change a tens. For the most part it was clear what you meant to say, so it did not interrupt the read too much.
eg.
Quote:It did not take long [be]for multiple threads popped [up] on the forum asking for detailed feedback on many topic[s ] and issues that had been long-standing issues for many players.
or if I was to Corp-Edit more heavily
Quote:It did not take long for multiple threads [to] popped [appear] on the forum asking for detailed feedback on many topic[s ] and issues that had been long-standing issues for many players.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3178
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Posted - 2015.04.20 18:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Pokey for next community 'manager'!
I'd rather be a Mars colonist than be subject to his whims.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
5966
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Posted - 2015.04.20 18:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:A very good article. There are a number for very minor copy-edit type problems in there, so you might want to take another read through when you are fresh to see if you can spot and correct them. They are mostly the type of problems you get when you rewrite a sentence and leave out a word, or forget to change a tens. For the most part it was clear what you meant to say, so it did not interrupt the read too much. eg. Quote:It did not take long [be]for multiple threads popped [up] on the forum asking for detailed feedback on many topic[s ] and issues that had been long-standing issues for many players. or if I was to Corp-Edit more heavily Quote:It did not take long for multiple threads [to] popped [appear] on the forum asking for detailed feedback on many topic[s ] and issues that had been long-standing issues for many players.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll take another look at it later tonight.
On a similar note, I've been meaning to ask if you would be interested in contributing to the blog. You're well written and have good insight (not to mention we'd appreciate more people on the team for critical proofreading  ) so I think you would do well.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast & Blog
www.biomassed.net
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Soldner VonKuechle
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
2103
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Posted - 2015.04.20 19:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Pokey for next community 'manager'! I'd rather be a Mars colonist than be subject to his whims.
Sorry Mars One collapsed, now you're stuck with us here on Earth.
I have cows that show more intelligence than some of you.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
9464
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Posted - 2015.04.20 20:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:I'd rather be a Mars colonist than be subject to his whims. Anyone who irritates Spkr has my complete support.
@Ripley_Riley
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