DUST Search - [Brain storm] Loyalty rank, can we earn it faster

Harpyja wrote:

Cross Atu wrote:

Harpyja wrote:

Cody Sietz wrote:

Is rank 4 that hard to get to?

Yes. I'm only rank 2. Almooooost rank 3.

Also, why not make SP factor into loyalty rank as well? Say something like 500 points for every 1 mil SP? Because I have 30 million SP yet I'm only rank 2, and my alt is somewhere around 17 million SP and only rank 1.

Using raw SP totals is problematic because of the nature of SP gains themselves.
WPs already factor in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from WP.
AUR already factors in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from AUR (if any boosters are used)
SP can be gained passively by simply creating a character and letting it sit, thus adding SP would allow ranks to be earned while not even playing the game in any manner (this is feeds into the alt farming issue directly).

Thing is though that it would still take a very long time of just passive SP to get to rank 4.

I seriously feel like SP should also be counted as well. SP per WP ratios have changed several times. I have played since Mordu's Trials, have only 30 million SP due to college, yet I can't trade because I'm only rank 2. That upsets me. A lot.


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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4300	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:25:00 - [1] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Gentlenerds of GD, The new player trading system requires players to be loyalty rank 4 before they can trade items. CCP Rattati has stated there are some exploits that are prevented by doing this, and I believe him. The issue is then becomes how can players who are not yet sure if they want to purchase AUR or not able to earn loyalty rank 4 before they die from old age? I suggest that on weekends* all activities that generate loyalty experience be increased; doubled, maybe even tripled. Perhaps we could increase the value of loyalty experience for WPs from 500 WP / 1 loyalty -> 250 WP / 1 loyalty Do you have any other ideas? *: Friday DT - Monday DT My pet project here is to introduce life time achievements (ribbons, medals, trophies, whatever you'd like to call them). Have a wide and diverse array of them spanning all activities in match and with multiple layers of depth and difficulty. Each one would grant a one time XP boost to your Loyalty Rank upon completion with the more difficult and esoteric achievements granting a proportionally larger amount of LR XP. This not only allows for more activity vectors to earn LR XP, it also provides a set of scaled values (much like the XP requirements for ranks are currently) so that as players progress a character in the game they are still able to meaningfully impact their rank through active play even as they reach higher levels of LR. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: Another thought I've had is including LR XP as a reward item earn-able from the completion of daily missions. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4300	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:29:00 - [2] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Is rank 4 that hard to get to? Yes. I'm only rank 2. Almooooost rank 3. Also, why not make SP factor into loyalty rank as well? Say something like 500 points for every 1 mil SP? Because I have 30 million SP yet I'm only rank 2, and my alt is somewhere around 17 million SP and only rank 1. Using raw SP totals is problematic because of the nature of SP gains themselves. WPs already factor in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from WP. AUR already factors in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from AUR (if any boosters are used) SP can be gained passively by simply creating a character and letting it sit, thus adding SP would allow ranks to be earned while not even playing the game in any manner (this is feeds into the alt farming issue directly). See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4300	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:44:00 - [3] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Harpyja wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Is rank 4 that hard to get to? Yes. I'm only rank 2. Almooooost rank 3. Also, why not make SP factor into loyalty rank as well? Say something like 500 points for every 1 mil SP? Because I have 30 million SP yet I'm only rank 2, and my alt is somewhere around 17 million SP and only rank 1. Using raw SP totals is problematic because of the nature of SP gains themselves. WPs already factor in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from WP. AUR already factors in, thus adding SP would compound the gains from AUR (if any boosters are used) SP can be gained passively by simply creating a character and letting it sit, thus adding SP would allow ranks to be earned while not even playing the game in any manner (this is feeds into the alt farming issue directly). Thing is though that it would still take a very long time of just passive SP to get to rank 4. I seriously feel like SP should also be counted as well. SP per WP ratios have changed several times. I have played since Mordu's Trials, have only 30 million SP due to college, yet I can't trade because I'm only rank 2. That upsets me. A lot. SP is a derived sat, not a primary one. As you've noted the earning curve has changed various times but that's a ratio of activity to result, i.e. the value of the primary actions and the time they require remains the same only the SP gained from them has changed. The actions that SP is derived from are already counted, in that sense SP is already in the system, but without the extra distortion of having those differing values constraining or ballooning some peoples totals. While I totally understand being upset by not having access to the upcoming trade feature adding SP as a metric really is problematic. Purchase of Omega Boosters via AUR then trivializes the system (as another example of problems it would create) you'd get xp for the AUR use and then xp for the match play and the wp gains and then more xp for the sp you derived from those actions. But with the SP counting directly the Omega (and to a lessor extent all SP boosters) become xp boosters as well. One of the last things the LR system needs is to be weighted so that AUR has a larger impact than it currently does. To sum up, don't add an SP factor, keep AUR contributions to the system where they are, and add more ways for players activity while deployed in match to earn xp so it is not as hard for someone actively playing the game to earn ranks. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4300	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:56:00 - [4] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Well, if that's the case, it may be way too high reward for buying aur and way too low for actually playing the game. I used to play like 3-4 hours day! It's not that AUR is a higher reward, it is just faster. 2 AUR = 1 loyalty 1 match = 2 loyalty 1 victory = +2 loyalty 500 WPs = 1 loyalty 1 daily login = 5 loyalty Logging in daily, actively participating in matches, and earning victories does earn you loyalty experience... but no where near as quickly as just paying $20. Depends on how quickly you earned that $20, if you're working at wal-mart it's actually faster to just play the game Back on topic more I do think added vectors for tracking activity would be a good thing thus enabling really active players to earn loyalty ranks faster. It allows them to become a small side goal to work on rather than this thing that sort of just "is" the way they are now. At some level "buying" a rank will always be faster than earning one through play alone because it only takes you moments to click through a PSN transaction no matter how much you are spending. As such I think our primary focus should not be on "what is AUR vs other stuff in earnings" but more directly tackling the baseline problem by asking "what can we do to make earning Loyalty Ranks through activity alone more accessible and rewarding" On that note I will shamelessly solicit more feedback and input on my suggestions of an achievements system and/or adding some loyalty rank xp rewards to daily missions See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4310	Posted - 2015.04.15 18:06:00 - [5] - Quote Current XP earnings 1 match = 2 loyalty 1 victory = +2 loyalty 500 WPs = 1 loyalty 1 daily login = 5 loyalty Add xp to the 'Complete X daily missions' mission. 3 missions = 5 5 missions = 7 8 missions = 10 10 mission = 15 ^May need better numbers but the goal is to provide a meaningful addition to the xp without making it trivial. Keep in mind this is assuming that the 'Trophies' system is also going to be put in place, and those I would see as having much larger rewards since they are lifetime rather than repeatable. Bronze = 50 Silver = 100 Gold = 400 Platinum =2000 ^ Again these are just numbers off the top of my head to get discussion rolling. And the specific values would have to be tuned to the actual requirements of each achievement. But the idea is that as you unlock each one, the next is progressively harder/longer to attain but it gives substantially more of an xp reward when completed. Capping a 'Platinum' (or whatever they end up being called) level achievement should ideally give a visible improvement in the Loyalty Rank level bar (if it doesn't outright level you, possibly more than once, depending on your current level at the time). Net effect of the two combined is intended to be a more steady rate of increase through normal daily activity with occasional 'bursts' of growth as achievements/trophies are earned, thus giving additional day to day and long term methods of increasing LR XP through activity alone. I'd love help developing and refining this idea further so we can bring something to ccp that will increase community enjoyment of the Loyalty Rank system. I think it's come some potential to be a fun mini game, we just need to put our heads together and give it some polish. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.04.15 22:40:00 - [6] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Cross Atu wrote: I'd love help developing and refining this idea further so we can bring something to ccp that will increase community enjoyment of the Loyalty Rank system. I think it's come some potential to be a fun mini game, we just need to put our heads together and give it some polish. Not sure where I can expand upon this idea, but I do have a question... what exactly would the trophies be awarded for? 'X kills wearing a scout dropsuit' 'Perform X headshots' 'Counter-hack an objective X times' 'Earn X WPs from Team Resupply' Like the above? Yes along those lines. I haven't even remotely developed an exhaustive list or anything, just that general notion. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4321	Posted - 2015.04.16 16:45:00 - [7] - Quote shaman oga wrote: More than any other reason, this system do not prevent exploit. You only need to pay to use the exploit. Not entirely accurate, many of the items that can be farmed via exploit can also be attained in game for AUR or via other means. The fact however that they can be acquired via microtransaction means that if you spend the AUR to acquire them the exploit is just a more convoluted way to do what you can already do on the market. As to the larger scale exploits requiring multiple alts it is true this method alone would not fully address that but it is not slated as the only method just a part of the puzzle and let is be blunt there is no such thing as a system 100% proof against exploits (just look at the encryption decryption "wars" for an object lesson in this phenomena) so in the out of game context of managing a real world product such as software heavily mitigating the ability to exploit while also requiring either an investment of cash or a substantial activity level within game is on balance pretty effective. So, does this system prevent all exploits? No, nothing does that. But it is not the only system and it does make an impact on the ability to exploit via alts. EDIT: All of that being said I still want more vectors for active players to earn LR XP, as outlined in my prior posts in this thread. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4321	Posted - 2015.04.16 16:50:00 - [8] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Now I'm rank 8 and 1/2, so yeah, it could be pretty hard (if not impossible) to get rank 4 in 2 weeks without any aur item. I believe Kane Spero confirmed that getting loyalty rank 4, from 0, costs roughly $20 worth of AUR. I personally don't think that is asking for much, but to a new player that is a high investment for a game you just downloaded two days ago. If you downloaded the game two days ago, what kind of items do you really need to trade anyways? Very little. Having say roughly two months be required from download to unlocking trade isn't a bad situation to be in, especially because AFAIK you can still receive items you just cannot send them. And frankly until we have a more complex trade system which provides better tools to avoid getting scammed it isn't such a bad thing to keep trade out of the hands of new bros who don't know how much glee some members of New Eden take in ripping people off. Nothing like having all the gear or money you start with being stolen during your first week or two of play to turn you off on continuing in a game. 0.02 ISK See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4322	Posted - 2015.04.16 17:35:00 - [9] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I suggest that we just change the requirement to Loyalty Rank 4 or Faction Standing 4 (or a higher number depending on desired level of effort) so that people who don't want to buy AUR can grind up to access to trading in another manner. I like basing it on Faction Standing since you only get Faction Standing when you win FW matches. It is also easy to track your progress toward your goal and predict the effort involved. That's an interesting idea, I hadn't considered that one. May have some issues related to the possible loss of FW standing, but maybe there's a way to make it a simple unlock such as "if you have ever attained X rank during your character lifetime". Certainly bears more consideration. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!