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![[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png "[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]")
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 17:45:00 -
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Finally after much grinding and gnashing of teeth I managed to get the skills to drive the Galente logi LAV and play around in it a bit and so I present my findings to the DEVs and community.
Healing Infantry: 4/10
The Good
The Logi Lav has a built in rep for infantry that quickly reps up large amounts of HP helping them stay in the fight.
The Bad
The built in rep heals for some non seen value because you can't see its stats and because it needs to lock on can't lock up more then one person at a time or possibly even heal more then one as that wan't something I got to test. I also didn't get rep points every time I applied rep to a damaged infantryman, though when I did it was a solid 25 points.
The Ugly
You aim all remote reps with the 'look' stick while driving and that makes it swing around wildly so you can't actually lock anything up if your moving unless its right in from of you and you are keeping pace. While this might work a little for repping something like tanks it just doesn't work for healing infantry. The vehicle reps you can put on it are no more effective then they would be fit to anything else, like the free LAV.
Speed and Handling: Identical in all respects to the free LAV we start with
Fitting: 5/10
The Good
It looks like you have about as much CPU as you should, making it limiting, but not overly restrictive.
The Bad
Powegrid on this thing is so low that you can't fit a self rep and plate without some serious fitting gymnastics if it's not impossible all together. I don't have perfect fitting skills so it might look better with better fitting skills, but as it stands you can either have 2 RR or one RR and one local rep with a power core in the last low slot.
The Ugly
With only 3 lows and 3 highs this has very little flexibility. This is further compounded in your tanking slots also being used for your RR should you field any
Attack power: Identical in all respects to the free LAV we start with except default is blaster turret
Durability: 2/10
The Good
Not anything really. You start with a bit more HP then normal but that's about it. Some times when crossing an open area it might let you survive a forge gun round if your lucky and at full health, but it won't stand to anything that looks like a determined attempt to kill it.
The Bad
You can expect your shields to be gone or near gone the whole time your driving because of splash and light arms fire so in that sense you're not much more durable then the free LAV at full health.
The Ugly
Because you have so little space to fit resistance mods and you need to basically stop to fix up people because of the crappy locking mechanic you are effectively MORE vulnerable to swarm launchers or forge guns because you will be in one place long enough to get more then one good full damage shot off.
Is this worth training towards right now? No you get no SP, you provide no real help to your team, and it sucks up isk to try.
That's my initial impression of the vehicle and its use. Luckily I got the infinite spawning bug so there was always another one to use when the last one died and both teams called at least one tank so I got to play with the support role too. I do think that this can be fixed with some changes.
Recommended changes to save the Logi LAV:
1) Replace the current built in rep with either an AOE radius around the logi that auto heals infantry over time say 10 or 20HP a second with points awarded every 100 HP healed amount everyone receiving reps. The Logi should not be able to move, or not move fast with this on. This rep should not have cool down.
2) Give the LAV a different modal so people can see that it either needs to be taken out or that they should defend it because it will keep them alive.
3) Remove the passenger and turret seats this is not an attack vehicle at this point its a support vehicle. If nothing else the passenger is pointless as the dropship should be the one transporting stuff.
4) Failing to fix the built in rep give the Logi a turret that the driver controls like the tank with a 'heal gun' on it so you can properly lock up and heal units.
5) If there is a cap to the number of units that can be healed at once remove it.
6) Either Boost powergrid to at least 300% or more its current value and give it twice as many low slots so it can be fit to be durable at the player's expense or give it an inherent 80% damage reduction bonus so it doesn't insta pop when looked at sternly.
7) Improve base health by some percent based on the other changes to slots/grid/base damage reduction. A 250% boost to HP would give it the opportunity to runaway without letting it just stand under anti tank fire.
8) Remove cool downs on reps when used on the Logi
9) Improve handling for better control, possibly making it slower as well so its speed is midway between a tank and a LAV.
I'm sure I'll come up with some more ideas or adjust these some as I play with the vehicle more, and I do have most of my stack of 10 left to get to know the vehicle better, but this is my initial assessment of whats wrong with it and how it can be fixed. |
[Veteran_Kavela Menardi]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 18:53:00 -
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One thing I have noticed is that fitting of vehicles in DUST is by far more clunky then Eve. That in mind Eve used to be very unfriendly in this respect but that in no way should be taken by CCP as permission to "work out the fitting bugs as we go". I have been baffled by the complexity of fitting in this game, and im going on 5 years of Eve almost at this point. I will admit that my fits in Eve are fits that are tried and tested and i dont deviate from them to much (if it aint broke right?), but even when I am testing new fits on Sisi to later be implemented by corp in live i dont fumble this much.
One thing that makes this difficult is the lack of bonuses for skills. For example in Eve I have Minmatar Frig 5 and Assualt frig to 5, whats more I have the appropriate gunnery skills and what not to 4-5. What this means is that essentially in a Wolf I am fairly deadly up to BC's and have been known to swing a BS ( skills versus lesser skilled players, suprise, bad moves on other peoples parts and all but still can be done). The reason I am deadly in such a ship is not because I am awesome and you suck, its because, for example, for every level of assualt frig i get % damage modifier and this is where DUST currently fails.
Logistics Dropsuit 1 gives no inherent bonus over say Logi DS 5. Of course there are better suits based on level but this isnt enough. I agree that, as Eve is currently, Caldari Frig 1 and 5 is the diffrence between a Bantam and a Kestrel or Merlin and there is no true diffrence in the skills between 1-5 as far as its over all bonus, but a Bantam flown by lvl 1 pilot vs a lvl 5 pilot is a diffrent ship (albiet a crap ship but still).
Instead of making lvl 5 the level to unlock X, the bar needs to be lowered and stats need to be added such as +x% to remote repping per Caldari LAV per lvl, or -X% to lock times per level. Something because as it is it looks like all those hard won lessons you learned from Eve CCP have been forgotten when it comes to DUST. |
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 20:52:00 -
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I've tried I really did, but I can't do anything with the Logi LAV, just can't. I can't heal, I can't dps, I'm in an LAV so people rightly don't bother hoping in my logi for transport, and I can't even support vehicles. I love logi in EVE and was hoping i would like it here but unless the logi dropsuit is awesome and has its own built in reps this just isn't worth driving right now. Seriously I would sell back the part of my stack that I just can't bring myself to work through back if given the option.
Maybe I'm missing something though. One person having some of the crappiest experience ever dose not make for a full understanding of the stuff in question. How many of you drive this or have driven this wreck of an LAV? What was it like for you? |
[Veteran_Cantus]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 21:37:00 -
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Thanks for posting this. I'm currently training up to the Gallente Logistics LAV as well. After reading this post, it makes me want to second guess my choice. Of course, since I am already close to finish the training, I might as well finish it and save my ISK for when the logi LAV does get fixed.
I agree/disagree on the following:
Area-of-Effect repping for infantry I support. Although, I disagree on removing limits. Imaging having your entire team huddle around you with an AOE rep active and tanking the opponents too easily because of their numbers. I would say, limit the AOE to the number of players you can target per skill level (may need a new skillbook for this). This is base on the design of the Eve Online logistics ships such as the Oneiros where the number of ships you can rep is limited by how many you can target at once.
I agree that more low slots need to be added along with more CPU or PG for the self repping. The Oneiros in Eve Online can self rep just fine while actively repping others because it has a balanced number of slots and a balanced PG/CPU/Capacitor. I'm not trying to say that the logi LAV should be powerful. I just want it to be balanced.
I agree that the turret needs to go. It's a logistic LAV for crying out loud, not an assault vehicle. Leave the turrets for the Caldari.
I disagree about the passenger side. Perhaps to make things easier for the driver, the passenger should contribute to helping out in some way. After all, the current passenger seat doesn't do anything except be an extra seat. I would suggest maybe giving some of the logistics controls to the passenger if he has the proper skills to do so. This way, the driver can just focus on driving while the passenger handles the operation of the logistics mods. If the passenger leaves, the driver regains control of the functions. This is in case the passenger gets shot to death.
Finally, I agree that the logistics ships should have it's own unique look so that both friend and foe can identify it. |
[Veteran_Ensalon Reln]
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:08:00 -
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AOE heal as opposed to targeted i support, limit to the numbers you can heal, i don't support, what i support is having a 'max healable' that gets divided amongst the people being healed - EVEN AT FULL HEALTH you count... so having 50 guys around the tank might heal them at a rate of 1 HP/s, and if only one of those 50 is hurt, he still only gets 1 hp/s - which means that if you aint hurt, back off and let the others get the heals, if you're broke, get in close. removes the targeting requirement, but still limites the EFFECTIVE number of people you can heal..
NOTE :: numbers used above are for example only - use current repper rep amounts, but divide amongst targets, perhaps heal the units based on MAX health (never current, then you'd just have everyone just stand right next to it) this would make everyone stay simmilarly squishy to how they normally are, but would still provide healing to all involved, without making a scout look like a heavy. <- posted without re-reading, excuse the rambling please |
[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.06 22:24:00 -
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In the vehicle devblog, i was under the impression that the infantry repper would be a turret. This would be much more accurate than having the driver lockon to constantly-moving infantry. |
[Veteran_Orin Fenris]
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Posted - 2012.06.07 06:13:00 -
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hmm, I'd say give it the AOE heal, number of people it can heal at once capped by your skill, and Remove the gun turret and add in a large remote repper that can lock on to a vehicle. So that way you could drive around, follow a tank, and you could have your squad surround you, and not only protect you, but help protect the tank as well. It sounds like a great tactic for the innitial charge.
however, I am still eager to see how they handle infantry logi. |
[Veteran_Matrix Owner]
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Posted - 2012.06.07 08:25:00 -
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Easy fix for AOE, have a fixed number of HP heals per cycle......
Therefore, 1-3 infantry in the AOE, full heal, after that you get diminishing returns, and if you have the whole team in they get like 5% heal....
You can tweak the amount, what I put is just an example, but by giving a set heal per cycle the skills can be made to increase that number and area size.
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[Veteran_Z highestbid]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 05:31:00 -
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I feel i wasted money and skill on the logi LAV and its to random to use nobody wants to stop in the middle of a fight to heal specially since barely anyone uses mics. |
[Veteran_Hazma Dictace]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 07:18:00 -
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Reps should come in the form of a Giant super soaker turret on the back of the LAV. Just make an awesome liquid-nano-fluid that we can all bathe in while in slow motion rubbing our drop suits on each othe.....sry it's late. |
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[Veteran_Randrii]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 07:22:00 -
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Hazma Dictace wrote:Reps should come in the form of a Giant super soaker turret on the back of the LAV. Just make an awesome liquid-nano-fluid that we can all bathe in while in slow motion rubbing our drop suits on each othe.....sry it's late.
Does it also shoot kittens.
It saddens me that at this stage logistics is so under rewarded. especially since i haven't specced in anything non-logistics |
[Veteran_UltraMind Regenersis]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 08:40:00 -
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I agree that the points made are very valid BUT the main issues with logi are to do with how the game is played at the moment.
You cannot co-ordinate a team as you never know who will be in team with you, you cannot make pre battle plans for the same reason. And the lack of guaranteed voice comms means you cant call for /give reps. So this means the logi is very limited in effectiveness.
HOWEVER
When you get the ability to pick your squads and members, and specify in corp that no voice comms = no fight. When the team has been chatting on its own forums and come up with tactics and "actions on..."
Heres what I see happening:
Two Logi drivers are in a squad with 4 other infantry. 2 people drive, 2 people use the turrets, 2 people sit in passenger (these can either be peeps who jump out in heavy suits for close defense or people with vehicle rep ability to rep the logis/other vehicles)
This squad then covers the advance of other squads.
Because there are two logis and as mentioned they can have two RR each they rep each other and have one spare. I would hope that with skills and bonuses that a logi will be able to remote rep more/better than it could local rep meaning they dont need to fit local rep. The logis sit in cover where they can see the advance of friendlies without necessarily being in LOS of the hostiles.
This will also improve when the current placeholder system for sight/detection is replaced with sensors/ECM/ sight ranges etc that may make vehicles more viable in general.
So in conclusion - stick with these vehicles, thay are only going to get better over time with good quality feedback. Also when the game does go live with real PvP corp wars you will be invaluable and hardcore merc corps will pay BIG ISK to recruit/keep you. |
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST]
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:15:00 -
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I do admit that performance will vastly improve when used in a cohesive manner by a group of practiced individuals, but I don't think that it can be saved by that alone. Seeing so many people toss out some very good ideas does give me some hope though. |
[Veteran_Ghural]
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Posted - 2012.06.13 23:37:00 -
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Really great and well thought out post. I agree with all of the OP points. |
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