DUST Search - Shield vs armor tank imbalance

The Dark Cloud wrote:

Currently we see the returning era of madrugars rampaging the battlefield like no tomorrow. main reasons for that is not just solely the buff to armor hardeners going from 25% to 40% resistance but rather a combination of hardener buff and the drastic nerf towards anti armor turrets.

-Large missiles:
absolutely useless vs anything in the game now. They fire too slow, lack damage and its near impossible to kill infantry with it. A single armor hardener will usually save you from a full missile barrage and then you are dead cause you spend alot of time reloading while the madrugar chews trough you with a blaster.

-Large railguns:
if you want to surely kill a tank then avoid this thing. 3 shots and it overheats which means your main offensive weapon is offline. You get 5 with a complex heat sink but on the other hand a double hardened madrugar will negate the damage, drive stright at you with a fuel injector and shot more holes into your tank then you can count.

What we have now is that fitting variety basically got eliminated. Yes Shield tanks work very good vs infantry but thats about it. Once a armor tank gets fielded its game over. There is just no decent anti armor plattform and the lack of DPS enhancing modules for low slots make this even worse. Something like a clip extension or rate of fire enhancer would be usefull to have.

Most of the time when a shield tank with a large missile tries to take on a madrugar head on he will die before he actually could fire all of his shots. In my opinion shield hardeners should have the same run time and cooldown like armor hardeners. And then buff Large missiles to a state where you are not beeing looked at like a suicidal moron when using them.

To make it clear: i want that HAV vs HAV fights are getting sorted. I dont want 60% shield hardeners which would turn gunnlogis into invincible rolling fortress of doom.

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The Dark Cloud Negative-Feedback. 4238	Posted - 2015.03.31 04:18:00 - [1] - Quote Currently we see the returning era of madrugars rampaging the battlefield like no tomorrow. main reasons for that is not just solely the buff to armor hardeners going from 25% to 40% resistance but rather a combination of hardener buff and the drastic nerf towards anti armor turrets. -Large missiles: absolutely useless vs anything in the game now. They fire too slow, lack damage and its near impossible to kill infantry with it. A single armor hardener will usually save you from a full missile barrage and then you are dead cause you spend alot of time reloading while the madrugar chews trough you with a blaster. -Large railguns: if you want to surely kill a tank then avoid this thing. 3 shots and it overheats which means your main offensive weapon is offline. You get 5 with a complex heat sink but on the other hand a double hardened madrugar will negate the damage, drive stright at you with a fuel injector and shot more holes into your tank then you can count. What we have now is that fitting variety basically got eliminated. Yes Shield tanks work very good vs infantry but thats about it. Once a armor tank gets fielded its game over. There is just no decent anti armor plattform and the lack of DPS enhancing modules for low slots make this even worse. Something like a clip extension or rate of fire enhancer would be usefull to have. Most of the time when a shield tank with a large missile tries to take on a madrugar head on he will die before he actually could fire all of his shots. In my opinion shield hardeners should have the same run time and cooldown like armor hardeners. And then buff Large missiles to a state where you are not beeing looked at like a suicidal moron when using them. To make it clear: i want that HAV vs HAV fights are getting sorted. I dont want 60% shield hardeners which would turn gunnlogis into invincible rolling fortress of doom. I make the scrubs scream and the vets cry.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5649	Posted - 2015.03.31 04:56:00 - [2] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: To make it clear: i want that HAV vs HAV fights are getting sorted. I dont want 60% shield hardeners which would turn gunnlogis into invincible rolling fortress of doom. Thank you for understanding that. As for shield tank balance... Large Missiles: I'd like to get your feedback on a thread that's been ongoing for a bit now. It has some various variations from a number of different people in an attempt to make the Missile Turret viable again without returning it to instagank status. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2678873 Large Railgun: I feel the nerf to 3 shots was unwarrented. It's extremely difficult to do much with 3 shots base, I think returning to 4 would be reasonable with perhaps General Shield Balance: I think dropping Armor to 35% resistance or increasing shield hardeners to have the same cooldown/duration is a no brainer. Armor Hardeners are clearly superior or equal in every way, there should be a tradeoff between the two. Additionally, what are you thoughts on giving shields boosters more reasonable fitting cost but a higher HP per minute than armor repairers? Something along the lines of being able to boost every 15-20 seconds or so? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4421	Posted - 2015.03.31 12:38:00 - [3] - Quote This again was called and predicted in the thread. Mulitple nerfs to shield and anti armor turrets while a buff to armor and the blaster turret has caused this. Missiles are too slow in firing and travel time and you can dodge them with ease. Railgun you can dodge but if the guy has a bit of lag the shot fires late and can miss and if you get any of the railgun bugs which have existed for 3 years then you are dead and 3 shots isn't enough to do any you might aswell use a FG. Add in passive armor repairers against a shield regen delay which cripples you because even having a regulator is useless because a smart blaster pilot knows that at best you have 3seconds to wait before regen picks up and 1 or 2 blaster shots stops that. Booster worthless if it doesn't work and adding extenders just prolongs the pain. Once again the asnwer is back to Chrome/Uprising Armor have active reps and higher base/HP in general, shield has pulse boosters and passive regen which can be boosted, missiles get ROF buff, railgun gets OH limit buffed etc Round and round we go again. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 577	Posted - 2015.03.31 16:02:00 - [4] - Quote The Dark Cloud wrote: Currently we see the returning era of madrugars rampaging the battlefield like no tomorrow. main reasons for that is not just solely the buff to armor hardeners going from 25% to 40% resistance but rather a combination of hardener buff and the drastic nerf towards anti armor turrets. -Large missiles: absolutely useless vs anything in the game now. They fire too slow, lack damage and its near impossible to kill infantry with it. A single armor hardener will usually save you from a full missile barrage and then you are dead cause you spend alot of time reloading while the madrugar chews trough you with a blaster. -Large railguns: if you want to surely kill a tank then avoid this thing. 3 shots and it overheats which means your main offensive weapon is offline. You get 5 with a complex heat sink but on the other hand a double hardened madrugar will negate the damage, drive stright at you with a fuel injector and shot more holes into your tank then you can count. What we have now is that fitting variety basically got eliminated. Yes Shield tanks work very good vs infantry but thats about it. Once a armor tank gets fielded its game over. There is just no decent anti armor plattform and the lack of DPS enhancing modules for low slots make this even worse. Something like a clip extension or rate of fire enhancer would be usefull to have. Most of the time when a shield tank with a large missile tries to take on a madrugar head on he will die before he actually could fire all of his shots. In my opinion shield hardeners should have the same run time and cooldown like armor hardeners. And then buff Large missiles to a state where you are not beeing looked at like a suicidal moron when using them. To make it clear: i want that HAV vs HAV fights are getting sorted. I dont want 60% shield hardeners which would turn gunnlogis into invincible rolling fortress of doom. None of the turrets need buffs until the madruger rep/hardener combo gets nerfed and we find out whats effective when there arent invincible tanks rolling around. We'll see where we're at afterwards.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 964	Posted - 2015.03.31 16:21:00 - [5] - Quote Sounds too much like you feel a large turret should drop everything without reload/letting it cooldown. Also mentioning that a large turret has trouble with infantry, is pretty much what Rattati seemed to want, so not gonna help the argument mentioning that (even though large blasters farm infantry better than anything now.) Large rails are fine, 2 shots and wait can work if you sit at range, 4 shots with heat sync then wait half a second can make it deadly at middle range... Large blasters being too useful at the moment make the other turrets look useless, they don't even need the dispersion mod or the cooldown mod to be deadly within their range, which would be less useful if we had larger maps and couldn't turbo up to someone in a second or 2. On large missiles I can agree with them needing a buff, but not fire rate, probably not missiles per reload either. Just ditch the 4 - 6 second wait before reload starts, that will probably do it.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1327	Posted - 2015.03.31 16:28:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The Dark Cloud wrote: To make it clear: i want that HAV vs HAV fights are getting sorted. I dont want 60% shield hardeners which would turn gunnlogis into invincible rolling fortress of doom. Thank you for understanding that. As for shield tank balance... Large Missiles: I'd like to get your feedback on a thread that's been ongoing for a bit now. It has some various variations from a number of different people in an attempt to make the Missile Turret viable again without returning it to instagank status. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2678873 Large Railgun: I feel the nerf to 3 shots was unwarrented. It's extremely difficult to do much with 3 shots base, I think returning to 4 would be reasonable with perhaps General Shield Balance: I think dropping Armor to 35% resistance or increasing shield hardeners to have the same cooldown/duration is a no brainer. Armor Hardeners are clearly superior or equal in every way, there should be a tradeoff between the two. Additionally, what are you thoughts on giving shields boosters more reasonable fitting cost but a higher HP per minute than armor repairers? Something along the lines of being able to boost every 15-20 seconds or so? On the railgun, I think they nerf was to emphasize that you HAVE to use a heatsink to get the same shot's as before. Adding a module in though and then nerfing the part to MAKE you use that module seems wrong. That said though, I generally don't have a problem with my railgun on an armor tank. Complex damage mod and heatsink, makes for plenty of dead tanks. Rails are still very viable and used quite often in PC, but only useful if you use a heatsink. Unlike the counterpart that gets use from the heatsink, the large blaster, yet remains very viable without it. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Test Subject 371 Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 11	Posted - 2015.04.20 19:30:00 - [7] - Quote Anyone using rails seen this - firing right through your target.. especially at close range? I've been in several battles lately, activate my mods, then watch an armor tank zoom right up to me, completely invincible to my shots. The rounds go right through the target without doing anything, other than overheating my gun. Usually by the time I try to use the third shot, I'm dead. On at least 2 occasions, this occurred when both I and my turret were completely stationary and my attacker was coming directly at me. I had targeting zoomed in on the main body of the tank, and there was absolutely no conceivable way those shots should have missed. I see this against infantry too. I get a red bead, shoot, and the round goes through the target, blowing up sometimes near them, but not impacting them. Sometimes the shot just vanishes entirely. I know this happens with forge guns sometimes, but now it is happening with my tanks. So, is this a lag problem, or is this a bug?
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 10213	Posted - 2015.04.20 20:15:00 - [8] - Quote Repair Hardener combo needs to be nerfed before you guys buff anything else like said before. You guys are making the CCP mistake of doing everything at once without solving the core issue. I want to return to the days of Defenses by themselves being able to last. Now, you need hardeners to stay alive in either tank and that's a pretty stale boring way to have vehicles. I dont know who thought it was a good idea to have this waves of opportunity crap but it shouldn't have been the only way to play a tank. *As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3117	Posted - 2015.04.21 00:16:00 - [9] - Quote Rails do need a higher shot count. But the damage is too high. Rockets are designed to be insta gank machines. As soon as they operate more like rockets/assault missiles (low damage, decent splash, high ROF/reload), they can get that ROF back. As for Squid vs. Gal hulls, it's not really the hulls, it's the modules. Hardeners needs a difference (I say nerf the armor ones by 5%, maybe 10%), and reps needs to become active again. Lastly, don't expect to be able to kill a Blaster Maddy in CQ, or any CQ oriented fit with a long ranged Rail, or any future long ranged turret. Just going to put that out there to you all. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Fleen Costell'o Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 590	Posted - 2015.04.21 00:20:00 - [10] - Quote Two hardeners OP, need mechanics aka Fuel injector. BUGS514 Find all. I love ksu123 )

Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3117	Posted - 2015.04.21 00:31:00 - [11] - Quote Fleen Costell'o wrote: Two hardeners OP, need mechanics aka Fuel injector. 1: No it's not, passive reps are. 2: speak proper English. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18390	Posted - 2015.04.21 00:37:00 - [12] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Fleen Costell'o wrote: Two hardeners OP, need mechanics aka Fuel injector. 1: No it's not, passive reps are. 2: speak proper English. I don't necessarily think 2x Hardeners are a bad thing but when you are pushing around 30 seconds of 60% resists I can't help but feel like a real tool. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City


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