DUST Search - can dust become balanced?

Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:

Onesimus Tarsus wrote:

Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:

Balance is impossible. Even Chess is not balanced due to White always moving first thus creating an imbalance in viable strategies.

Don't people take turns being white, or is that set from birth immutable?

Joking aside, even "taking turns" it is still imbalanced, as the very act of "getting to move first" creates an imbalance, forcing a reaction due to action. Balance is only possible when you have a symmetrical environment with identical mechanics presented to each player with identical technological user inputs and offering "real-time" or "Double-Blind turn based" mechanics.

A Quake LAN party, for example, is balanced.

DUST 514 can never be balanced due to virtue of having a resource disparity between players (ISK and SP).

Even then you can argue about what is really balanced, as balanced means the only outcome is Player Skill and possibly "luck." But then what is Player Skill? We could argue that Squads are "Balanced" as they are accessible to everyone, and Player Skill includes having the Charisma to assemble a squad and the drive to practice together, which raises other philosophical issues.

Balance can not be achieved unless a universal operational definition is established of what balance is... Which is a moot point given the resource disparity between players.

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jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 136	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:29:00 - [1] - Quote 2 /3 of a team are blueberries or low level, then you have the vets, destroying all hope of them guys improving. I have been in the stomp boat and honestly it's not fun. I've gone back to basic and bpo. Separation is extremely hard, how do you manage it? Under 10 mil or under 5 mil? After that yeah they'll have the sp but they won't have isk, they'll still bite the dirt. Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game exposedsquad
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3067	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:31:00 - [2] - Quote jade gamester wrote: 2 /3 of a team are blueberries or low level, then you have the vets, destroying all hope of them guys improving. I have been in the stomp boat and honestly it's not fun. I've gone back to basic and bpo. Separation is extremely hard, how do you manage it? Under 10 mil or under 5 mil? After that yeah they'll have the sp but they won't have isk, they'll still bite the dirt. Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game Lethality... that's the stat you're looking for. KDR matchmaking would patch all the patches into pure patchitudity.
Izlare Lenix Pub Stars 1337	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:00 - [3] - Quote Squad stomping with vets gets soooooo boring after a few games. It's too easy. The only challenge really left in this game is soloing. Especially since PC is a pointless joke now. If there was a game mode that didn't allow squads I think that would be the best chance of any sort of balanced matches. And that's only if scotty would stop putting 3/4 of the high sp players on the same side. The only real truth in history is that it was bloody.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 475	Posted - 2015.02.27 12:38:00 - [4] - Quote jade gamester wrote: 2 /3 of a team are blueberries or low level, then you have the vets, destroying all hope of them guys improving. I have been in the stomp boat and honestly it's not fun. I've gone back to basic and bpo. Separation is extremely hard, how do you manage it? Under 10 mil or under 5 mil? After that yeah they'll have the sp but they won't have isk, they'll still bite the dirt. Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game I still think we need one or two seperate gamemodes for lower SP characters. Call it Academy Graduates and Seniors. Then restrict it to a certain amount of SP. They should have the chance to learn the game as the vets have, by trying stuff, and not getting devestated by the Pros from the get go. CCP Please give the New players a chance to grow into this game... otherwise you will never get the numbers necessary for this game to improve...
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 6131	Posted - 2015.02.27 13:50:00 - [5] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Squad stomping with vets gets soooooo boring after a few games. It's too easy. The only challenge really left in this game is soloing. Especially since PC is a pointless joke now. If there was a game mode that didn't allow squads I think that would be the best chance of any sort of balanced matches. And that's only if scotty would stop putting 3/4 of the high sp players on the same side. I think Scotty is doing the job, there are two factors in play in my opinion. 1) So many solo players makes balance impossible in a team based game 2) Lots of high SP players that refuse to fight against well known players.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4013	Posted - 2015.02.27 14:06:00 - [6] - Quote Extend academy to maybe 5mil lifetime SP, no adv/proto allowed. Pubs in general need levelling out with meta level, simplest one is again basic modules/suits and weapons allowed so a 6man squad can stomp but it is only in basic gear and the only thing gain advantage wise is SP but the effect of SP at a basic level is minimal. Also needs to put squads against squads more often. FW/PC is free for all. Could make FW/PC give out more to the winners so have an incentive to win more.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game RUST415 457	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:14:00 - [7] - Quote jade gamester wrote: 2 /3 of a team are blueberries or low level, then you have the vets, destroying all hope of them guys improving. I have been in the stomp boat and honestly it's not fun. I've gone back to basic and bpo. Separation is extremely hard, how do you manage it? Under 10 mil or under 5 mil? After that yeah they'll have the sp but they won't have isk, they'll still bite the dirt. Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game As long as we have people like you running heavies with SG's and NK's , no. lol Caldari Loyalist Why should infrantry that don't own vehicles, that can't balance their own mechanics, balance vehicles
postapo wastelander Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 952	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:18:00 - [8] - Quote jade gamester wrote: 2 /3 of a team are blueberries or low level, then you have the vets, destroying all hope of them guys improving. I have been in the stomp boat and honestly it's not fun. I've gone back to basic and bpo. Separation is extremely hard, how do you manage it? Under 10 mil or under 5 mil? After that yeah they'll have the sp but they won't have isk, they'll still bite the dirt. Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game Full racial parity in weaponary/vehicles with proper balancing later and answer is YES. With holes in core of game answer will be NO. "Sebiestor Tinker/Hetzer" "Corrosive Supporter/Synergist" "We build from Rust"
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3409	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:19:00 - [9] - Quote Balance is impossible. Even Chess is not balanced due to White always moving first thus creating an imbalance in viable strategies. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:21:00 - [10] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Balance is impossible. Even Chess is not balanced due to White always moving first thus creating an imbalance in viable strategies. Don't people take turns being white, or is that set from birth immutable? KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.

Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3409	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:23:00 - [11] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Balance is impossible. Even Chess is not balanced due to White always moving first thus creating an imbalance in viable strategies. Don't people take turns being white, or is that set from birth immutable? Joking aside, even "taking turns" it is still imbalanced, as the very act of "getting to move first" creates an imbalance, forcing a reaction due to action. Balance is only possible when you have a symmetrical environment with identical mechanics presented to each player with identical technological user inputs and offering "real-time" or "Double-Blind turn based" mechanics. A Quake LAN party, for example, is balanced. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 3409	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:36:00 - [12] - Quote Yes, I'm very fun at parties. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1269	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:38:00 - [13] - Quote reduce public squad sizes to 4 players. -in public skirmish matches go back to the old system that squads solo players upon deployment. instruct new players in hint type messages to find greens. -squads that were assigned entirely by scotty are given an additional bonus to one object chosen by scotty with a squad order in skirmish (nobody in a scotty squad has control over squad lead ie. cannot drop ob's or give commands, this does not apply if you entered the match as A squad leader with an empty/partial squad.) -if a scotty assigned squad acquires enough points scotty deploys some form of resupply (maybe including some repair nanites)from the mcc to the squads designated objective *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 17:59:00 - [14] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Balance is impossible. Even Chess is not balanced due to White always moving first thus creating an imbalance in viable strategies. Don't people take turns being white, or is that set from birth immutable? Joking aside, even "taking turns" it is still imbalanced, as the very act of "getting to move first" creates an imbalance, forcing a reaction due to action. Balance is only possible when you have a symmetrical environment with identical mechanics presented to each player with identical technological user inputs and offering "real-time" or "Double-Blind turn based" mechanics. A Quake LAN party, for example, is balanced. DUST 514 can never be balanced due to virtue of having a resource disparity between players (ISK and SP). Even then you can argue about what is really balanced, as balanced means the only outcome is Player Skill and possibly "luck." But then what is Player Skill? We could argue that Squads are "Balanced" as they are accessible to everyone, and Player Skill includes having the Charisma to assemble a squad and the drive to practice together, which raises other philosophical issues. Balance can not be achieved unless a universal operational definition is established of what balance is... Which is a moot point given the resource disparity between players. Sticking to the chess example, as painful as it might be, we still could know that if a player plays enough as white and black and still wins the clear majority of the time, the argument could be made that you have found the better player. Then they should go on to play players with the same (similar) win/loss ratio. Thus, by separating players out by lethality (KDR), you make KDR the common denominator, and stomp stops. People don't want absolute fairness. They want a decent chance against their opponents. The game is kill or die with mitigating factors. Dividing by KDR reduces the game to the mitigating factors. Eventually it boils down to skill. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:00:00 - [15] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: Yes, I'm very fun at parties. Aren't we all? KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6994	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:03:00 - [16] - Quote jade gamester wrote: Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game So if pub queue times today are 2-3 minutes, what would queue times be if we split pubs into 3 different tiers? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:05:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: jade gamester wrote: Tier based seems legit basic/militia advanced then proto/ officer, that is how you change the game So if pub queue times today are 2-3 minutes, what would queue times be if we split pubs into 3 different tiers? KDR matchmaking doesn't require any playerbase division. Bonus. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Edau Skir2 Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 637	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:11:00 - [18] - Quote Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:13:00 - [19] - Quote Edau Skir2 wrote: Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. KDR matchmaking largely removes the need for academy, and utterly stops academy stomp. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Edau Skir2 Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 637	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:16:00 - [20] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. KDR matchmaking largely removes the need for academy, and utterly stops academy stomp. KDR matchmaking won't help, they'll still get thrown against good players. My KDR is only 1.31 atm, so a blueb coming out of academy would be put in the same game as me, and I'm running proto Galmando with Kalente's/Krin's AR's atm (Got a surplus of those....) Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0

Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:17:00 - [21] - Quote Edau Skir2 wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. KDR matchmaking largely removes the need for academy, and utterly stops academy stomp. KDR matchmaking won't help, they'll still get thrown against good players. My KDR is only 1.31 atm, so a blueb coming out of academy with that same kdr would be put in the same game as me, and I'm running proto Galmando with Kalente's/Krin's AR's atm (Got a surplus of those....) Will you play them even after their KDR plunges from facing you? Answer: no. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Edau Skir2 Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 638	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:32:00 - [22] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. KDR matchmaking largely removes the need for academy, and utterly stops academy stomp. KDR matchmaking won't help, they'll still get thrown against good players. My KDR is only 1.31 atm, so a blueb coming out of academy with that same kdr would be put in the same game as me, and I'm running proto Galmando with Kalente's/Krin's AR's atm (Got a surplus of those....) Will you play them even after their KDR plunges from facing you? Answer: no. And what about the old slayers who have been running Logi for a while? This proposal won't solve stomps, it will just reduce them a little in frequency. Logistics mk.0 / Logibro's Modified Logistics mk.0
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 991	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:48:00 - [23] - Quote High sec and low sec like eve High sec could be limited to what ever meta level the community decides on and then low sec for the officer squads Currently pubs and FW "could" fit this if their was a limitation on pubs and better rewards in FW Anyone can play either just like eve. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:50:00 - [24] - Quote Edau Skir2 wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Edau Skir2 wrote: Has no-one been reading Rattati's posts? They are in fact adding an Academy 2.0 to the game so that new players aren't thrown straight into the grinder so soon. KDR matchmaking largely removes the need for academy, and utterly stops academy stomp. KDR matchmaking won't help, they'll still get thrown against good players. My KDR is only 1.31 atm, so a blueb coming out of academy with that same kdr would be put in the same game as me, and I'm running proto Galmando with Kalente's/Krin's AR's atm (Got a surplus of those....) Will you play them even after their KDR plunges from facing you? Answer: no. And what about the old slayers who have been running Logi for a while? This proposal won't solve stomps, it will just reduce them a little in frequency. Over time, everyone's KDR would approach 1 (1/1), but they would never reach it entirely. I would guess that inside a month, all the disparity would work out, and we'd all be facing tough competition for the difference, but stomp would stop entirely and permanently. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3072	Posted - 2015.02.27 18:53:00 - [25] - Quote The problem is that stomp sells boosters and BPOs, so it's in CCP's best interest to keep their game good and broken. KDR matchmaking fixes everything but the stupid purple Quafe stuff.
Proto Annihilator 16 Vandals 440	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:14:00 - [26] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: The problem is that stomp sells boosters and BPOs, so it's in CCP's best interest to keep their game good and broken. Until they realize the kids getting stomped out get psn cards like candy. Parenting is OP.
altair Dovahkiin Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2015.02.27 19:22:00 - [27] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Squad stomping with vets gets soooooo boring after a few games. It's too easy. The only challenge really left in this game is soloing. Especially since PC is a pointless joke now. If there was a game mode that didn't allow squads I think that would be the best chance of any sort of balanced matches. And that's only if scotty would stop putting 3/4 of the high sp players on the same side. hey you leave scotty out of this. lol Bravery doesn't mean you aren't scared. It means you go anyway


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