DUST Search - To Rattati: Assault Swarms and ADS

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

I feel like a lot of my personal frustration with swarms while flying comes from this: They are expected to be fast enough to catch ADS while being strong enough to destroy tanks. This is unfair to the dropship; Dropships not only can't escape a weapon that is fire and forget, it also doesn't have the health of a tank in order to resist it.

Assault swarms can lock two targets, but split the missiles to hit those target (two missiles to target 1, two missiles to target 2) This is the primary reason for it's lack of presence on the battlefield; it is simply better for all the missiles to hit one target.

My solution to these two problems is thus: Let's make the Assault Swarms be anti-air, and regular swarms can be anti-armor. Let's nerf regular swarm speed, and then buff assault swarm speed. I will then nerf assault swarm damage slightly, in order to accommodate the lower health of ADS. Numbers assume proto level.

Standard Swarms
Damage: 1248 (312 x4)
Speed: 35 m/s

Assault Swarms:
Damage: 1120 (280 x4) (~90% of standard)
Speed: 70 m/s

This means that if we need to buff swarm damage against tanks, it doesn't affect swarm/DS balance. Numbers are negotiable, but the concept I believe is sound. We can simultaneously have a swarm balanced specifically against ADS, and we also breathe new life into an almost completely unused weapon variant.

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Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2558	Posted - 2015.02.26 03:24:00 - [1] - Quote I feel like a lot of my personal frustration with swarms while flying comes from this: They are expected to be fast enough to catch ADS while being strong enough to destroy tanks. This is unfair to the dropship; Dropships not only can't escape a weapon that is fire and forget, it also doesn't have the health of a tank in order to resist it. Assault swarms can lock two targets, but split the missiles to hit those target (two missiles to target 1, two missiles to target 2) This is the primary reason for it's lack of presence on the battlefield; it is simply better for all the missiles to hit one target. My solution to these two problems is thus: Let's make the Assault Swarms be anti-air, and regular swarms can be anti-armor. Let's nerf regular swarm speed, and then buff assault swarm speed. I will then nerf assault swarm damage slightly, in order to accommodate the lower health of ADS. Numbers assume proto level. Standard Swarms Damage: 1248 (312 x4) Speed: 9m/s Assault Swarms: Damage: 1120 (280 x4) (~90% of standard) Speed: 14 m/s This means that if we need to buff swarm damage against tanks, it doesn't affect swarm/DS balance. Numbers are negotiable, but the concept I believe is sound. We can simultaneously have a swarm balanced specifically against ADS, and we also breathe new life into an almost completely unused weapon variant. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Major IMPACT Dead Man's Game RUST415 91	Posted - 2015.02.26 03:39:00 - [2] - Quote +1 But I would like to at least have a regular swarm launcher that can lock into both tanks and dropships. That's what she said
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2559	Posted - 2015.02.26 03:47:00 - [3] - Quote Major IMPACT wrote: +1 But I would like to at least have a regular swarm launcher that can lock into both tanks and dropships. Lock on isn't being touched. Only the speed of the swarms and missile damage. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5059	Posted - 2015.02.26 03:56:00 - [4] - Quote Glad to see people talking about the long neglected Assault Swarms. This is a pretty good idea, though I will ask, have you considered a lower damage, longer (lock) range variant, with perhaps the higher speed? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 140	Posted - 2015.02.26 03:57:00 - [5] - Quote Yesterday I experienced the eHP scenario. The damage from the augmented ammo + mk.0 + possible mods put fear into my railbus. When I have a feeling I will be doing air to air, I rep tank (280+ or bust) so i have bass armor. then I got hit by these swarms last night. MY DAYS i was surprised. I went from full eHP to 1700 aHP from one salvo. 4 missiles. I was confused because I know if it was more than one guy, it would've pushed me deeper in aHP and have more hits "heard". So i did flybys past the general direction of the swarmer and realized it was just one guy... And he consistently knocked me to 1700 aHP. That my friends! Is unfair ;) So that's why I agree! Slower and powerful; or faster weaker. Fits the name "assault" to be faster weaker anyways... Entering the void and becoming wind. Message for 1v1 air to air
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2559	Posted - 2015.02.26 04:16:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Glad to see people talking about the long neglected Assault Swarms. This is a pretty good idea, though I will ask, have you considered a lower damage, longer (lock) range variant, with perhaps the higher speed? This can be considered, but the basic idea is to make the assault swarm ideal for DS combat while not so good against tanks, and vice versa. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 505	Posted - 2015.02.26 10:38:00 - [7] - Quote also means that you can hit those annoying LAVs quite reliably too. +1 also...just leave std swarm variant as is. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 530	Posted - 2015.02.26 10:42:00 - [8] - Quote The Assault swarm should have longer range and faster projectiles, with less damage. The regular should have shorter range, slower projectiles, and more damage. Am I the only one that thinks that makes sense? One better for tanks and one better for dropships. G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 473	Posted - 2015.02.26 10:44:00 - [9] - Quote Just NO! You can't balance swarms atm, because any nerf to help the Incubus, will make the Python god mode! If you want to help armor vehicles, you need to look into buffing them and not nerfing swarms. I'd sugest buffing armor hardeners to help armor vehicles instead of the constant rage about swarms. Infantry needs a easy counter to vehicles, otherwise vehicles reign supreme. Anything else will bring back tank/DS 514!
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 1201	Posted - 2015.02.26 11:27:00 - [10] - Quote Lol lets make ADS even less vurnable to SL... How about adding in a low slot that is a chaff/flare dispenser (activate it like a hardener) which makes you immune to lock on weapons for the duration but disables primary weapon fire. How about fixing ADS so Incubus cant ram Python to death for free? How about not gimping an already gimped weapon like the swarm launcher and actually think of a reasonable solution? Nemo me impune lacessit CCP - Announcing games at the same time as killing the ones you love CCP - No Credibility

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7368	Posted - 2015.02.26 12:50:00 - [11] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Speed: 14 m/s The hell is this sh*t? Your idea of balance is to make the anti-air variant fly at 1/5th the speed of a dropship and the anti armor less than half the speed of an HAV? 9m/s? REALLY? How does this do anything but make them useless against everything? Don't get me wrong I think the weapon is overperforming like mad but damn dude. 14m/s flight speed? AV
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 3994	Posted - 2015.02.26 13:09:00 - [12] - Quote Still the problem is the DS cannot avoid the swarms. There still is no countermeasures and the only way is to hit the AB and run and pray that all 3 volleys do not hit so by buffing the speed again then the chance to outrun them gets lower and also quicker to reach the target quicker to cause more damage.
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 92	Posted - 2015.02.26 15:19:00 - [13] - Quote Being a pilot I actually wouldn't mind these changes but I would like a way to tell what missiles are chasing me (different colour or one type has 6 missiles or something) Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
MRBH1997 Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 156	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:13:00 - [14] - Quote I like the idea of having this kind of swarm variation. Maybe have the assault variant as one that fires faster swarms, quicker lock, lower damage, and maybe quicker reload? Then have he normal swarm as is it with a speed that can't catch a ADS at full speed. Maybe have a breach variant meant to fire slow moving, high damage swarms. These would be ideal for hitting tanks. Regardless the idea of this is good, it's all really gonna come down to how stats will be changed to not make either underpowered or so forth. It also depends on whether they will have ADS frames like they are gonna do with tanks so twy can have better fits. Regardless swarms shouldn't be able to catch up so easily to ADS's at full speed which I think they might have fixed recently. Not sure if it was my afterburner, but I didn't hear the swarms explode right behind me from barely outrunning them. CEO of Knights of Ender Corporation Recruitment Channel: Ender's Keep One of the best tankers out there.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders 2943	Posted - 2015.02.27 00:38:00 - [15] - Quote I wouldn't mind the high damage swarms can output vs. DS's and ADS's (needs changing regardless) if I could dodge them; the turning angles they can do is sill tbh. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1806	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:04:00 - [16] - Quote Obodiah Garro wrote: Lol lets make ADS even less vurnable to SL... How about adding in a low slot that is a chaff/flare dispenser (activate it like a hardener) which makes you immune to lock on weapons for the duration but disables primary weapon fire. How about fixing ADS so Incubus cant ram Python to death for free? How about not gimping an already gimped weapon like the swarm launcher and actually think of a reasonable solution? Not only would it never be used because there is no python fit without a PG extender. It might be useful on incubis tho. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1046	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:20:00 - [17] - Quote I think I like this idea in theory. Not sure exactly about the numbers tho. Who cares what some sniper has to say. CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles!
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2568	Posted - 2015.03.02 00:24:00 - [18] - Quote Updated OP. Confused acceleration with top speed. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 817	Posted - 2015.03.02 00:48:00 - [19] - Quote Oh wow you actually want to nerfbat dropships even more? Its more luck then anything else these days to actually be aible to escape swarms with a dropship. I would rather like it if assault swarms could be dumbfired to make them basically a AV shotgun. And no swarm missiles have no splash damage which makes them useles vs infantry. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 187	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:11:00 - [20] - Quote This is great. Now I can actually USE MY ADS WITHOUT BEING SHOT DOWN THE MOMENT IM OVERS THE ENEMY. 48th Special Operations Force. Twitter- @48SOF

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1373	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:47:00 - [21] - Quote I like this proposal for the most part, assuming numbers are/get balanced of course. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7739	Posted - 2015.03.02 10:21:00 - [22] - Quote Approved by this hardline AV veteran. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
The-Errorist 1085	Posted - 2015.03.09 14:47:00 - [23] - Quote I made a trello card for this issue https://trello.com/c/aqxMxoUZ/498-rebalance-assault-and-base-swarm-launchers Suits, Tanks, a mode
Greiv Rabbah M.T.A.C Assault Operations Command Lokun Listamenn 195	Posted - 2015.03.10 00:37:00 - [24] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like a lot of my personal frustration with swarms while flying comes from this: They are expected to be fast enough to catch ADS while being strong enough to destroy tanks. This is unfair to the dropship; Dropships not only can't escape a weapon that is fire and forget, it also doesn't have the health of a tank in order to resist it. Assault swarms can lock two targets, but split the missiles to hit those target (two missiles to target 1, two missiles to target 2) This is the primary reason for it's lack of presence on the battlefield; it is simply better for all the missiles to hit one target. My solution to these two problems is thus: Let's make the Assault Swarms be anti-air, and regular swarms can be anti-armor. Let's nerf regular swarm speed, and then buff assault swarm speed. I will then nerf assault swarm damage slightly, in order to accommodate the lower health of ADS. Numbers assume proto level. Standard Swarms Damage: 1248 (312 x4) Speed: 35 m/s Assault Swarms: Damage: 1120 (280 x4) (~90% of standard) Speed: 70 m/s This means that if we need to buff swarm damage against tanks, it doesn't affect swarm/DS balance. Numbers are negotiable, but the concept I believe is sound. We can simultaneously have a swarm balanced specifically against ADS, and we also breathe new life into an almost completely unused weapon variant. I think a couple of things about this are harmful. First, assault swarms are plainly for lightly armored vehicles, that's why they're designed to take on more than one vehicle at a time. Second, if one swarm launcher(light AV) is supposed to take down a heavy attack vehicle, something's broken. Sebiestor scout, MTAC pilot, Merc w/ a face
Jason1 Black FACTION WARFARE ARMY FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 7	Posted - 2015.03.13 02:24:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like a lot of my personal frustration with swarms while flying comes from this: They are expected to be fast enough to catch ADS while being strong enough to destroy tanks. This is unfair to the dropship; Dropships not only can't escape a weapon that is fire and forget, it also doesn't have the health of a tank in order to resist it. Assault swarms can lock two targets, but split the missiles to hit those target (two missiles to target 1, two missiles to target 2) This is the primary reason for it's lack of presence on the battlefield; it is simply better for all the missiles to hit one target. My solution to these two problems is thus: Let's make the Assault Swarms be anti-air, and regular swarms can be anti-armor. Let's nerf regular swarm speed, and then buff assault swarm speed. I will then nerf assault swarm damage slightly, in order to accommodate the lower health of ADS. Numbers assume proto level. Standard Swarms Damage: 1248 (312 x4) Speed: 35 m/s Assault Swarms: Damage: 1120 (280 x4) (~90% of standard) Speed: 70 m/s This means that if we need to buff swarm damage against tanks, it doesn't affect swarm/DS balance. Numbers are negotiable, but the concept I believe is sound. We can simultaneously have a swarm balanced specifically against ADS, and we also breathe new life into an almost completely unused weapon variant. love it I love this game but it makes me rage so much. Star wars battlefront 3 coming out, so excited!!


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