DUST Search - Plasma Cannons should do more DPS than Swarms.

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

#1I seem biased towards AV? No. I'm biased towards Plasma Cannons not being ****. I'm sorry that you think nothing should kill you, much less some mere infantry, but too bad so sad. You should be just a capable of death as any infantry player.

#2TTK for Plasma Cannons would only be slightly shorter than the TTK for swarms, and only at the highest levels.
TTK is what matters, not the amount of shots. If a weapon does 200 damage per shot but fires 240 rounds per minute it would kill just as fast, but take many more hits. So the "2 shots being too quick" argument is ********.

#3First mover advantage. This is true, but just like a scout vs a heavy, the HAV has ample time to react. An HAV would still have a minimum of 2.2 seconds to begin reacting, with pretty much any reaction resulting in survival. Compare that to the 0.6s reaction time I get when a shotgun hits me and this complaint seems goddamned silly.
That's a minimum of 2.2 seconds. Your much more likely to get a full 4-5 seconds of grace in reality.

#4What are tanks supposed to to? Run, or fight, just like literally everyone else in this game, not the "just sit there in one place and farm infantry" playstyle they want.
Hell, as long as they stop just ******* ignoring me because my weapon sucks I'd be happy! They certainly don't seem to ignore swarms if all the QQ posts about them are any indication, so I figure its a good idea to bring Plasma Cannons up to that level.

#5And there are splash weapons for them. Heard of missiles? They make more than decent anti infantry weapons if used correctly.
Blasters aren't the infantry grinders they used to be with their half second TTK and pinpoint accuracy?! Your instablap cannon has dispersion now?! Too ******* bad. They deserved to get nerfed as hard as they did.


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MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1930	Posted - 2015.01.20 05:27:00 - [1] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: OP POST Agreed that, on paper at least, PLC should have more DPS than Swarms. Reasoning: First is moderately easy/difficult to hit on the first show, extremely difficult on follow-up shots. The Swarm is very easy from first to last shots. Also, there's free guidance. Personal experience: when tanking, I just lol at plasma cannons and their shots. The only advantage they have is their moderate alpha augmented by extra shield damage. So, I'm up for either: a) upping PLC DPS. OR b) making swarms less easy to hit. Oh and one more thing: I'm not into that OHKing tanks thing. Like I said. The OHKing would only happen if they shot you in the weak point, and if you don't have any hardeners active. Otherwise, any HAV with decent HP would take two shots to kill. So pretty much just fit 1 HP mod and 2 hardeners, and you'll be immune to the OHKs as long as you cycle the hardeners, and then Plasma Cannons would then take 3-5 shots to kill you while they are active. This way, the high skill vehicle playstyle, which is cycling hardeners, would be the direct counter to the high skill AV playstyle which is Plasma Cannons. There's a few problems with your thinking here and most of it is that you think a tank should take two shots to kill. You seem to be very biased towards the AV side of things. You get to pick up tanks on passive radar from 50m away, you get first mover advantage, its hard to tell where you're being hit from in a vehicle.... and you also think that you should be entitled to kill vehicles in 2 shots if their mods aren't on? We go straight back to pre 1.7 when tanks were coffins... except now they also have the 'added benefit' of being warpoint pi+¦atas for AV. What are tanks supposed to be able to do back to you? Hmm? They don't have guns that can reliably hit you, or you cry about that, they don't have splash damage on any of their weapons anymore. What is the opposite end of the spectrum? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1930	Posted - 2015.01.20 06:31:00 - [2] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: #1I seem biased towards AV? No. I'm biased towards Plasma Cannons not being **. I'm sorry that you think nothing should kill you, much less some mere infantry, but too bad so sad. You should be just a capable of death as any infantry player. #2TTK for Plasma Cannons would only be slightly shorter than the TTK for swarms, and only at the highest levels. TTK is what matters, not the amount of shots. If a weapon does 200 damage per shot but fires 240 rounds per minute it would kill just as fast, but take many more hits. So the "2 shots being too quick" argument is ****. #3First mover advantage. This is true, but just like a scout vs a heavy, the HAV has ample time to react. An HAV would still have a minimum of 2.2 seconds to begin reacting, with pretty much any reaction resulting in survival. Compare that to the 0.6s reaction time I get when a shotgun hits me and this complaint seems goddamned silly. That's a minimum of 2.2 seconds. Your much more likely to get a full 4-5 seconds of grace in reality. #4What are tanks supposed to to? Run, or fight, just like literally everyone else in this game, not the "just sit there in one place and farm infantry" playstyle they want. Hell, as long as they stop just *** ignoring me because my weapon sucks I'd be happy! They certainly don't seem to ignore swarms if all the QQ posts about them are any indication, so I figure its a good idea to bring Plasma Cannons up to that level. #5And there are splash weapons for them. Heard of missiles? They make more than decent anti infantry weapons if used correctly. Blasters aren't the infantry grinders they used to be with their half second TTK and pinpoint accuracy?! Your instablap cannon has dispersion now?! Too *** bad. They deserved to get nerfed as hard as they did. 1) Plasma cannon isn't crap if anything the swarm launcher is overperforming relative to its ease of use. Unlike the swarm launcher it can also shoot at infantry. I also love how you're placing 'me' personally in the argument as a vehicle user or as the strawman of 'someone who wants to be invincible' so its easier to try and write off my opinion via logical fallacies and ad hominem. 2) Oneshot (aka alpha strike) weapons have significantly lower 'time to kill' than Damage over time weapons, even if their 'dps' is the same. Lets run an example - one weapon does 10000 damage every 10 seconds, versus another weapon that does 1000 damage every second. In theory their 'dps' is the same, in practicality the first weapon blows up someone who wasn't aware of them every 10 seconds and the 'time to kill' is really a fraction of a second. So no, your argument that 'their time to kill is the same' is wrong. We have seen this before with triple damage modded 80gj particle cannons that could shoot 600m they killed other vehicles with impunity before people even knew what they were taking fire from. 3) When you combine first mover advantage with insanely frontloaded dps you end up with the original cloak and shotgun problem... except now you've just directed it at vehicles who already suffered from being at a massive disadvantage in the first mover scenario. You have said outright that your model will have the potential to kill tanks in one shot - this is in zero way balanced or even remotely fair. 4) Its not a 'stop ignoring me cause my weapon sucks' It's a 'don't ever bring vehicles out because my weapon instantly kills them all'. You're making the fallacy of false equivalence with swarms - they are overperforming in a great deal of situations they should be toned down somewhat, not have every AV weapon buffed to equivalence. 5) Large Missiles have a splash radius smaller than a standard flaylock pistol, they are in no way a reliable weapon versus infantry, or are you trying to say that every vehicle should also have small missiles mounted to it too? Stop placing me in the argument and using ad hominem against me, you are doing nothing to actually justify your position. Your idea about plasma cannons is poorly thought out, has mile wide holes in its balance and based on your posting history you seem to think that you should always kill every vehicle forever with zero chance for them to do anything. Why do you think you should be able to kill vehicles when based on your position, vehicles shouldn't even be a threat to you with their large turrets? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1930	Posted - 2015.01.20 07:50:00 - [3] - Quote ^You may feel justified, but that doesn't make it correct or balanced. Dust is not other games. Vehicles are not temporary powerups here, they are roles with hefty isk & sp costs that can have incredibly deep investment to the exclusion of other things. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.