DUST Search - An important first step in vehicle balance

Bootless and Unhorsed wrote:

The process of balancing vehicles inevitably derails due to 2 complaints from pilots:
1. I have invested a ton of extra SP into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry
2. I have invested a ton of extra ISK into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry

To be honest, these are both legitimate complaints, but they can be addressed.

They are legitimate complains, let's see how you want to address it.

Why not treat vehicle hulls like dropsuits and turrets like infantry weapons?

I figured you'd address it like that, make them cheap throwaways, rather than the best way to get rid of other vehicle threats, and being armored transportation.

Let core skills apply for both vehicles and infantry, eliminating an unnecessary SP sink.

I have enough SP that I don't need to bother with infantry. I don't want to be skilled into infantry, but I am because running a vehicle 10 times out of 10 just isn't worth it, in terms of vehicle power vs AV.

This leaves 2 additional skill trees for pilot skills
1. Vehicle Command
2. Turret Operation

We used to get a ton of passive bonuses for turret operation, like infantry does for their skills.

Fill these trees out for all of the variations of vehicles and vehicle mounted weapons with SP values similar to infantry skills, balancing the SP investment between these roles.

I don't care if being a full pilot into all vehicles for both races will cost 55-60mil SP. I have that. I already have 5 PRO suits and 4 PRO weapons, including all 3 large turrets to 5, and level 5 core skills for vehicles. I likely have enough to get Marauders, Enforcers, logi LAVs and logi ships to 5.

QQ #1 for pilots is now moot, your SP investment is no greater than anyone else's for a dropsuit.

lolwut

Now on to costs, or QQ #2.

Reduce the costs of vehicles and turrets to be more comparable to dropsuit and infantry weapon costs. The current disparity creates a balancing hurdle that will never be overcome.

That just makes them cheap throwaway POS. I don't want my vehicles to be cheap throwaways, I want them to be worth the ISK and SP investment.

Now we can go about the process of balancing vehicles and turrets against infantry dropsuits and weapons properly. The 2 biggest complaints no longer exist and we can create a balance where 1 player = 1 player regardless of their weapons platform.

Properly, which means a PRO blaster only dealing a total of 500 damage over 10 seconds.

Oh and one last thought, any vehicle update that doesn't involve bringing back all of the old modules is a waste of time, fitting variation is one of the biggest features that makes this game interesting.

As if you care. Do you even pilot?

I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Bootless and Unhorsed Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2015.01.16 20:21:00 - [1] - Quote The process of balancing vehicles inevitably derails due to 2 complaints from pilots: 1. I have invested a ton of extra SP into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry 2. I have invested a ton of extra ISK into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry To be honest, these are both legitimate complaints, but they can be addressed. Why not treat vehicle hulls like dropsuits and turrets like infantry weapons? Let core skills apply for both vehicles and infantry, eliminating an unnecessary SP sink. This leaves 2 additional skill trees for pilot skills 1. Vehicle Command 2. Turret Operation Fill these trees out for all of the variations of vehicles and vehicle mounted weapons with SP values similar to infantry skills, balancing the SP investment between these roles. QQ #1 for pilots is now moot, your SP investment is no greater than anyone else's for a dropsuit. Now on to costs, or QQ #2. Reduce the costs of vehicles and turrets to be more comparable to dropsuit and infantry weapon costs. The current disparity creates a balancing hurdle that will never be overcome. Now we can go about the process of balancing vehicles and turrets against infantry dropsuits and weapons properly. The 2 biggest complaints no longer exist and we can create a balance where 1 player = 1 player regardless of their weapons platform. Oh and one last thought, any vehicle update that doesn't involve bringing back all of the old modules is a waste of time, fitting variation is one of the biggest features that makes this game interesting.
Bootless and Unhorsed Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:51:00 - [2] - Quote Not one single comment? Not even to tell me how dumb I am?
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 521	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:12:00 - [3] - Quote 1. We had that in Chrome/Uprising skill wise 2. Since 1.7 which no pilot ever asked for we lost everything - skills, bonuses, hulls, turrets, modules 3. Since the start of the game anything that hurts infantry has been nerfed into the ******* ground 4. We didnt even get pilot suits because of how hard infantry cried about the placeholder bonuses 5. I used to have 30mil+ SP into vehicles during Chrome/Uprising and still wasnt finished - Now im going backwards and have less than 17mil EDIT: If vehicles and infantry were going to be 1:1 and the same then they need o be super cheap but then i lose intrest since i enjoyed my 2.5mil surya which required 30mil SP to skill into
Crimson ShieId Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1725	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:21:00 - [4] - Quote Bootless and Unhorsed wrote: Not one single comment? Not even to tell me how dumb I am? Obligatory You're Dumb Comment Cause it was asked for~ Jk, but I don't think you're going to get too many pilots behind this idea. Tanks are (Or rather, were) fun before because not only were they exceptionally powerful when used right, but they were also expensive and therefore, a literal treat to run. Your idea might work with lighter vehicles, maybe we could get some kind of hoverbike with mounted guns or something, but the idea of a tank is to be a force multiplier. They're supposed to be stronger than infantry, at the price of mobility in certain areas and having a giant target painted on your tailpipe that says "Shoot me for points!" I do however hope that CCP brings back all the old modules and variations and such. I miss the customization that came from vehicles. Now it's just really dull as there aren't any real options. I want to punch.
Bootless and Unhorsed Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 0	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:21:00 - [5] - Quote Did you really enjoy the investment in ISK and SP or just the huge advantage that gave you over everyone else on the battlefield? Do you enjoy piloting vehicles or just having a big advantage over infantry?
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 349	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:24:00 - [6] - Quote 1 player should not equal 1 player. Make a higher contrast between offensive and defensive fittings and you have balance; not only vs. infantry but vs. other tanks due to the offensive and defensive cancelling each other out to a degree. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 521	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:34:00 - [7] - Quote Bootless and Unhorsed wrote: Did you really enjoy the investment in ISK and SP or just the huge advantage that gave you over everyone else on the battlefield? Do you enjoy piloting vehicles or just having a big advantage over infantry? 1. The SP needed was a massive amount but it always gave me something to aim for because it made my vehicle better 2. Vehicles were fun to use, not anymore 3. Vehicles cannot be compared to a flimsy human but a flimsy human can hack things and take shortcuts and a hide in places where i cannot reach
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2791	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:51:00 - [8] - Quote Bootless and Unhorsed wrote: Did you really enjoy the investment in ISK and SP or just the huge advantage that gave you over everyone else on the battlefield? Do you enjoy piloting vehicles or just having a big advantage over infantry? Vehicle =/= infantry Marauder =/= Type-A dropsuit. Pilots and infantry had different end-game gear to work towards. That's like asking a full squad of pub stomping scrubs if they really enjoy their ISK and SP investment that gives them a huge advantage over academy grads. Of course they're going to say yes. A Marauder is what separated a veteran pilot from a newcomer in a MLT vehicle. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2791	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:58:00 - [9] - Quote Bootless and Unhorsed wrote: The process of balancing vehicles inevitably derails due to 2 complaints from pilots: 1. I have invested a ton of extra SP into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry 2. I have invested a ton of extra ISK into vehicles, I should be more effective than infantry To be honest, these are both legitimate complaints, but they can be addressed. They are legitimate complains, let's see how you want to address it. Why not treat vehicle hulls like dropsuits and turrets like infantry weapons? I figured you'd address it like that, make them cheap throwaways, rather than the best way to get rid of other vehicle threats, and being armored transportation. Let core skills apply for both vehicles and infantry, eliminating an unnecessary SP sink. I have enough SP that I don't need to bother with infantry. I don't want to be skilled into infantry, but I am because running a vehicle 10 times out of 10 just isn't worth it, in terms of vehicle power vs AV. This leaves 2 additional skill trees for pilot skills 1. Vehicle Command 2. Turret Operation We used to get a ton of passive bonuses for turret operation, like infantry does for their skills. Fill these trees out for all of the variations of vehicles and vehicle mounted weapons with SP values similar to infantry skills, balancing the SP investment between these roles. I don't care if being a full pilot into all vehicles for both races will cost 55-60mil SP. I have that. I already have 5 PRO suits and 4 PRO weapons, including all 3 large turrets to 5, and level 5 core skills for vehicles. I likely have enough to get Marauders, Enforcers, logi LAVs and logi ships to 5. QQ #1 for pilots is now moot, your SP investment is no greater than anyone else's for a dropsuit. lolwut Now on to costs, or QQ #2. Reduce the costs of vehicles and turrets to be more comparable to dropsuit and infantry weapon costs. The current disparity creates a balancing hurdle that will never be overcome. That just makes them cheap throwaway POS. I don't want my vehicles to be cheap throwaways, I want them to be worth the ISK and SP investment. Now we can go about the process of balancing vehicles and turrets against infantry dropsuits and weapons properly. The 2 biggest complaints no longer exist and we can create a balance where 1 player = 1 player regardless of their weapons platform. Properly, which means a PRO blaster only dealing a total of 500 damage over 10 seconds. Oh and one last thought, any vehicle update that doesn't involve bringing back all of the old modules is a waste of time, fitting variation is one of the biggest features that makes this game interesting. As if you care. Do you even pilot? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim


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