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[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 13:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
it sure better be lengthy and teach people how to play...and not just walls of text to read, training game modes that allow these lil ADD fiends to learn by doing before the real bullets start flying. MAG dropped the tutorial ball and it wasn't anywhere near as complex as this game...spawning a generation of players who called in air strikes when the AA was up and brought repair kits and anti-tank mines to sabo (and who couldnt be faulted because they didnt know better) OH THE HORROR.
alot of players are going to be frustrated if a CCP tutorial doesn't teach them the game's basics. Forums will rage everytime someone buys the newest shiny gun with AUR or their whole ISK stash and isn't anywhere remotely close to having the prereqs or skill levels to use it.
we haven't heard anything about respecs (which is cool--it should be very limited) or even if we have the ability to sell unused merchandise back to retailers (no problem here either) I love the marketplace, but "click first, think later" console players are going to feel taken advantage of if they aren't told the basics of how things work in New Eden.
Dust University looks like a great tool, but 80% of the players that download this game are going to be in a rush to hurry up and shoot someone and won't even know it exists. dump them into a tutorial first for their own good. |
[Veteran_Anserio]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 13:58:00 -
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I agree completely.
Warhawk made the mistake of shipping sans-tutorial, and the sheer number of times you'd see players throwing grenades instead of crouching, or putting their aircraft into hover mode when you hit them with a missile was staggering.
Dust has a lot more features than just running, shooting, and flying, so the scope for new-player-confusion is massive. |
[Veteran_EL CID]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 14:29:00 -
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Can't highlight this enough, in regard of Non-EVE players good tutorials can and will impact the success of DUST |
[Veteran_Hunter Cazaderon]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 14:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kushmir wrote:it sure better be lengthy and teach people how to play...and not just walls of text to read, training game modes that allow these lil ADD fiends to learn by doing before the real bullets start flying. MAG dropped the tutorial ball and it wasn't anywhere near as complex as this game.
alot of players are going to be frustrated if a CCP tutorial doesn't teach them the game's basics. Forums will rage everytime someone buys the newest shiny gun with AUR or their whole ISK stash and isn't anywhere remotely close to having the prereqs or skill levels to use it.
we haven't heard anything about respecs (which is cool--it should be very limited) or even if we have the ability to sell unused merchandise back to retailers (no problem here either) I love the marketplace, but "click first, think later" console players are going to feel taken advantage of if they aren't told the basics of how things work in New Eden.
Dust University looks like a great tool, but 80% of the players that download this game are going to be in a rush to hurry up and shoot someone. dump them into a tutorial first for their own good.
I think CCP mentionned Tutorials via the default corp you'll start with when first creating your character. CCP should definitely offers tutorial through easy PVE missions when starting the game. MAG did the mistake of offering a crappy tutorial and paid the price as you already mentionned.
Respecs: No use here imo. You get SP and use them. There's no Skill Cap that would stop you from having every skill like in MAG. And also, the fact that you have to think about and prioritize the skill you're gonna learn is one of the strenght of the game. Being able to respec could ruin this a little.
Selling products : I guess we'll have to wait till the player to player market starts till we can sell back our stuff. Or maybe we could have NPC buying those back at 75% of the original price. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 14:42:00 -
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*crosses fingers*
on another note, was cool playing with you the other day, Caz.
Mitauchi mentioned remapping (the respec equivalent in EVE) and its why i mentioned it. pretty sure you can do it once a year there. |
[Veteran_vader]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 17:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hunter Cazaderon wrote:Kushmir wrote:it sure better be lengthy and teach people how to play...and not just walls of text to read, training game modes that allow these lil ADD fiends to learn by doing before the real bullets start flying. MAG dropped the tutorial ball and it wasn't anywhere near as complex as this game.
alot of players are going to be frustrated if a CCP tutorial doesn't teach them the game's basics. Forums will rage everytime someone buys the newest shiny gun with AUR or their whole ISK stash and isn't anywhere remotely close to having the prereqs or skill levels to use it.
we haven't heard anything about respecs (which is cool--it should be very limited) or even if we have the ability to sell unused merchandise back to retailers (no problem here either) I love the marketplace, but "click first, think later" console players are going to feel taken advantage of if they aren't told the basics of how things work in New Eden.
Dust University looks like a great tool, but 80% of the players that download this game are going to be in a rush to hurry up and shoot someone. dump them into a tutorial first for their own good. I think CCP mentionned Tutorials via the default corp you'll start with when first creating your character. CCP should definitely offers tutorial through easy PVE missions when starting the game. MAG did the mistake of offering a crappy tutorial and paid the price as you already mentionned. Respecs: No use here imo. You get SP and use them. There's no Skill Cap that would stop you from having every skill like in MAG. And also, the fact that you have to think about and prioritize the skill you're gonna learn is one of the strenght of the game. Being able to respec could ruin this a little. Selling products : I guess we'll have to wait till the player to player market starts till we can sell back our stuff. Or maybe we could have NPC buying those back at 75% of the original price.
CCP is not known for making good tutorials, have you played eve? The game is over 7 years old and it's very confusing for new players.
However, maybe people and the community will contribute once the NDA wall is removed.
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[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 17:24:00 -
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really? well lets hope they've gotten better. players that have been waiting for this game for years are the least of our worries...they WANT to learn how to compare and contrast fits, how to increase the CPU on their dropsuits and will be sure to check the prereqs before they pay a dime for anything.
casual players and those who will hear about the game the week it's launched on the other hand....
and those same people will make up the biggest playerbase. the tutorial needs to be OFFICIAL and something you're thrust into when you login for the first time. picture the average online player letting some "community" on the internet tell him how to play...aint gonna happen...
tutorial FTW. the game you save may be your own. Zipper is still kicking themselves over Ben Jones' training gaffe. Instead of an educated playerbase we got noobs that sat in suppression for 80% of the time. luckily that was the place they did the least damage. in objective-based game modes they hurt much more than they helped. |
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kushmir wrote:Mitauchi mentioned remapping (the respec equivalent in EVE) and its why i mentioned it. pretty sure you can do it once a year there.
As an EVE player, remapping is nothing like respecing. Remapping merely redistributes certain attributes so you can learn some new skills slightly faster while slowing down other skill progressions. You are still stuck with every skill you currently have.
But yes, new players are given two bonus Remaps, and every remap after that has a one year cooldown. |
[Veteran_SuperMido]
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Posted - 2012.05.22 18:56:00 -
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I'm not against the tutorial idea, but I don't see it as a necessity to be honest. Yes, Dust 514 is the most complex FPS I've ever seen, but it took me about 3 days till I figured out everything. And I've never played EVE before, so I had no background knowledge.
I think people coming from other games like MAG, or the old Battlefield titles will find Dust 514 a bit challenging at first, but they'll get it fast enough. People coming from games like CoD or who have no experience with FPS will probably not even bother with Dust 514 because its way too much for them. And thats a good thing if you ask me.
If CCP decides to include something to get people more familiar with Dust 514, I say the best thing to do is a training mode that starts the first time you play the game. Something like what Section 8 Prejudice has, when you first start, it takes you into a training mode where you get familiar with the controls, the objectives, etc. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 01:53:00 -
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not a necesssity? i dunno man. i can point to the example of MAG where more games were lost by virtue of clueless players than were won by skill.
i played MAG today for the first time in over 9 months. impossibly, its playerbase has gotten even worse--and it isn't their fault. you cant expect players to learn games by osmosis. and there's no comparison...difficulty-wise Dust is a stealth bomber and MAG is a friggin cropduster.
we can't assume everyone will be like the hardcore, as a matter of fact based on the fact that shooters are a super popular genre and this games has f2p status, its probably safer to assume they WONT BE. most of these players will be of the casual variety, but atleast a tutorial can make them educated casuals.
hardcore online players aren't well known for their patience, and they can absolutely ruin a new player's experience.
what's being done with Dust 514 hasnt ever been done before, console players just arent used to this level of detail, they need help adapting. At a basic level what business model says "sure everyone else drives on the right side of the road, and while we drive on the left side, we're not going to tell anyone and just let people kind of figure it out." wait? what?
thats FAIL on top of FAIL. there isnt a better way for this game to stumble out of the gates than to botch the NPE. |
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[Veteran_John Surratt]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 04:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kushmir wrote: Dust University looks like a great tool, but 80% of the players that download this game are going to be in a rush to hurry up and shoot someone and won't even know it exists. dump them into a tutorial first for their own good.
Dust Uni, aka EVE Uni is only going to be as good as whoever they have over there teaching. It's community and player driven EVE Uni does "ok" at teaching the ropes in EVE, but I think a tutorial is going to be needed. Even if some Adderall popping thumber knows about Dust Uni by some miracle, he's not gonna know how to contact them. It's not like BF3 has anything at all like EVEmail or admin channels.
EL CID wrote:Can't highlight this enough, in regard of Non-EVE players good tutorials can and will impact the success of DUST
Crap, I wish EVE had the NPE tutorials it does now when I started. Back in the "walk up hill both ways to Yulai" days you got a noob ship and some sketchy directions. I didn't know I was supposed to keep training skills continuously for half the trial. The tutorials are still minimal and they are ten times better than the old ones.
+1 for tutorials for DUST. They can even be optional like they are in EVE. . . but it's a good way to make a good first impression to people who are new to New Eden. DUST is alot simpler than EVE but while familiar, it took a hour or two to take in, even for a EVE vet. Besides, maybe they will have "Aura" (Caroline Dalton) do the voice work for the tutorial. . .
SuperMido wrote:IIf CCP decides to include something to get people more familiar with Dust 514, I say the best thing to do is a training mode that starts the first time you play the game. Something like what Section 8 Prejudice has, when you first start, it takes you into a training mode where you get familiar with the controls, the objectives, etc.
Isn't that a tutorial? |
[Veteran_TigCobra]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 12:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kushmir wrote:it sure better be lengthy and teach people how to play...and not just walls of text to read, training game modes that allow these lil ADD fiends to learn by doing before the real bullets start flying. MAG dropped the tutorial ball and it wasn't anywhere near as complex as this game...spawning a generation of players who called in air strikes when the AA was up and brought repair kits and anti-tank mines to sabo (and who couldnt be faulted because they didnt know better) OH THE HORROR.
alot of players are going to be frustrated if a CCP tutorial doesn't teach them the game's basics. Forums will rage everytime someone buys the newest shiny gun with AUR or their whole ISK stash and isn't anywhere remotely close to having the prereqs or skill levels to use it.
we haven't heard anything about respecs (which is cool--it should be very limited) or even if we have the ability to sell unused merchandise back to retailers (no problem here either) I love the marketplace, but "click first, think later" console players are going to feel taken advantage of if they aren't told the basics of how things work in New Eden.
Dust University looks like a great tool, but 80% of the players that download this game are going to be in a rush to hurry up and shoot someone and won't even know it exists. dump them into a tutorial first for their own good.
Agree. |
[Veteran_Corban]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 16:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Players were the crutch for CCP's complete lack of NPE in eve in the early days.
Countless guides, and pages and pages of videos explaining how everything works have been made.
The problems is people who aren't naturally inquisitive to find these things on there own will just throw the controller at the screen like so many blobs of monkey poo and declare the game ****.
Aurora(audio):
"Welcome to your merc quarters. From hear you can access any tool you will need as a mercenary to achieve your personal goals. [Walks them through the different interfaces] All of these services can also be accessed instantly by pressing the start button and selecting a category."
"This is the drop suit fitting window. From here you can change the load outs of your drop suits to suit your needs on the battlefield. The battlefields of new eden are constantly changing so it is a good idea to have multiple drop suit fittings saved to deal with different tactical situations. You can save your fittings by creating a new fitting and when your done selecting and renaming it. You can also buy all the components for a saved fitting by selecting them and choosing restock, then setting the number of restocks you wish to purchase. The agregate cost will be displayed below..."
You get the picture. Basically it should be as hand holdy as the NPE they have for EVE when you first enter the captains quarters.
F*** it. If I play this long enough I will right these ***** for you for free and you can get that chick to voice them. I'd prefer it if the NPE for this game didn't suck on launch. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 18:43:00 -
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^this^ times 100. times 1000 even. |
[Veteran_Amerk Amukk]
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Posted - 2012.05.23 19:54:00 -
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Most of the 'tutorial' windows that pop up when you open something like the market or fitting tool for the first time do a decent enough job to let the player know what its function is and generally how to use it. Playable tutorial time shouldn't be wasted on this in my opinion.
Things I want to see in the tutorial:
*Vehicles -How to drive -How to shoot *Flying -How to fly *Walking -different weapon types -mele -sprint -zoom/shoot -crouch *Squads -everything. I really don't know anything more than the color of the friendly dots change. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
yes. we need all of this. especially short sections on the character sheet, marketplace and dropsuit fitting. |
[Veteran_MIRKINZ]
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Posted - 2012.05.25 15:39:00 -
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Can we mebbe have a sticky with some infor for the mean time? |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 15:26:00 -
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I was just looking at my notes and I cant believe we didnt mention getting in and out of turrets. If there's one place where we're sure to get stuck on geometry horribly--its there.
movement over obstacles is horrible as a rule, but in regards to turrets is where the lack of smooth movement really hurts gameplay. |
[Veteran_Xaan Suun-Brakur]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 18:34:00 -
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Agree, in-game tutorial earn ISKs and modules! |
[Veteran_IR Scifi]
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Posted - 2012.05.30 22:30:00 -
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How to use the swarm launcher (and anything else with an alt-fire option) would also be a good tutorial too. I still don't think I'm getting the lock-on mode to engage correctly... |
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[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 11:52:00 -
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well I dont think we should earn ISK or anything else in tutorial, the experience of practicing on a gun range, using a turret or being a good driver is your reward.
ha! first time i've ever seen anyone mention having problems with the swarms, but sure that should be in there too. |
[Veteran_RolyatDerTeufel]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 11:59:00 -
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My thing with tutorials would be like EVE's you get VERY basic understanding of the actual gameplay mechanics, it shows you the skills the fittings some basic modules and their uses.
Things like that. Also, wouldn't be required to do, cause you don't have to do them in EVE if you don't want.
The nubs that don't know anything will stay in NPC high sec corporations and in low risk areas of space.
EDIT: Didn't see Kush's newest post.
I disagree, I believe getting little bit of ISK for Tutorial (drone missions maybe) will help people get out of militia and into at least basic modules and weapons.
While it's amazing just getting ISK and SP while not haveing to restock any militia. I'd rather have a ton of basic gear then have militia. Militia gear is how it should be, only semi usefull vs advanced stuff (but with all DPS and all basic survival skills to high lvls. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 17:26:00 -
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thats not a bad idea...small ISK rewards as an incentive to do the tutorial/training (even tho i'd rather it be mandatory)
wouldnt be a bad idea the first time. after that going into corp war games, vehicle courses, trainers, killhouses, shooting ranges and obstacle courses should only net you the experience you get from becoming better from practice.
we cant let training areas become the newest exploit and way to advance without actually playing. |
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 17:32:00 -
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obstacle courses? explain |
[Veteran_Nor ic]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 20:06:00 -
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We will have to wait and see if CCP makes a good tutorial for Dust.
If not, hopefully someone in the community can make some good youtube videos. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.06.03 20:30:00 -
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Mavado V Noriega wrote:obstacle courses? explain
obstacle courses and killhouses the same to me. basically timed courses where you do things like shoot pop-up targets, climb ladders, hack turrets and climb ropes to familiarize yourself with the controls.
MAG had something similar. so did COD Modern Warfare...a good mechanic to get the basics down. IF we can configure it at all and add features or difficulty it would be even better. |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.06.14 18:33:00 -
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just wanted to point out how many people are struggling with Slay (not advanced at all)
if nothing else...this really outlines the need for a well done tutorial. |
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega]
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Posted - 2012.06.15 00:33:00 -
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Kushmir wrote:Mavado V Noriega wrote:obstacle courses? explain obstacle courses and killhouses the same to me. basically timed courses where you do things like shoot pop-up targets, climb ladders, hack turrets and climb ropes to familiarize yourself with the controls. MAG had something similar. so did COD Modern Warfare...a good mechanic to get the basics down. IF we can configure it at all and add features or difficulty it would be even better.
we agree the game needs a training facility of sorts but dont think obstacle courses are really necessary tbh climb ropes? hack turrets? u really need a training facility to teach someone how to press circle?
checkout my thread on how i would like to see a proposed VR training facility https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20361&find=unread |
[Veteran_Kushmir]
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Posted - 2012.06.15 01:40:00 -
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no the ropes and bunkers were just examples from COD, MAG. when i think obstacles i'm more along the lines of turrets and other automated stuff.
maybe even a few AI drones and soldiers. being able to place structures and walls might be alot to ask for but it would work wonders. |
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