DUST Search - let's save the Amarr Scout from extinction

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Protected Void wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

How to Fix:

~~+% Scan Precision~~
+% to Biotic Module Efficacy

As soon as that change is made I would delete all my Amarr scout fits.

Prior to falloff, I ran AM Scout roughly 25% of my time in pubs and 50-75% of my time in PC. I now run it 0% of the time, and I'm not alone in this. The suit's usage rates have plummeted with good reason; its former strength and role have been greatly devalued.

If the precision bonus were changed to a biotics bonus, I guarantee you'd see a spike in AM Scout use, both in pubs and PC. Further, if Rattati followed through with the Myo jump changes, biotic AM builds would become incredibly fun to run.

That may be so, but it would still ruin my playstyle. I want good enough precision to spot most scouts, the ability to dampen well and good speed. To my knowledge, no other suits can do that well enough. I don't think it makes sense to completely refocus a suit just because it got somewhat broken by the first iteration of scan falloff. Better to adjust the scan range and keep the suit within its intended niche. I already specced out of the cal scout once, due to the loss of precision bonus. It would really suck to have a bait and switch pulled on me yet again.

We were more-or-less told that "360 degree wallhack scans" have to go. I'd be thrilled to see Rattati make an exception for the AM Scout. He has good reason to, as its sole strength (counter-infiltration) was crippled by Falloff. Not to say we shouldn't ask, but I don't see that happening.

Alternatively, tuning Falloff by extending inner ring range (or reversing the Range Extender nerf) could create new balance problems. Firstly, we'd see the role we're trying to fix (AM Scout Recon) immediately replaced by the Logi (equal scan strength in practice, better scan range, greater build flexibility, far greater squad utility). Secondly, we'd see improved performance by already dominant Heavy+Logi blobs. Lastly, we'd introduce unreasonable risk level to backstab play.

I don't see an easy fix here, Void. If we've ruled that "360 degree wallhack scans" have to go, then they should stay gone. In which case, the AM Scout should get a new role to fill and a perk overhaul to fit it.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 325	Posted - 2015.01.02 01:12:00 - [1] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: How to Fix: ~~+% Scan Precision~~ +% to Biotic Module Efficacy As soon as that change is made I would delete all my Amarr scout fits. That makes two of us.
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 326	Posted - 2015.01.02 07:19:00 - [2] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: How to Fix: ~~+% Scan Precision~~ +% to Biotic Module Efficacy As soon as that change is made I would delete all my Amarr scout fits. Prior to falloff, I ran AM Scout roughly 25% of my time in pubs and 50-75% of my time in PC. I now run it 0% of the time, and I'm not alone in this. The suit's usage rates have plummeted with good reason; its former strength and role have been greatly devalued. If the precision bonus were changed to a biotics bonus, I guarantee you'd see a spike in AM Scout use, both in pubs and PC. Further, if Rattati followed through with the Myo jump changes, biotic AM builds would become incredibly fun to run. That may be so, but it would still ruin my playstyle. I want good enough precision to spot most scouts, the ability to dampen well and good speed. To my knowledge, no other suits can do that well enough. I don't think it makes sense to completely refocus a suit just because it got somewhat broken by the first iteration of scan falloff. Better to adjust the scan range and keep the suit within its intended niche. I already specced out of the cal scout once, due to the loss of precision bonus. It would really suck to have a bait and switch pulled on me yet again.
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 329	Posted - 2015.01.02 20:32:00 - [3] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Protected Void wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: How to Fix: ~~+% Scan Precision~~ +% to Biotic Module Efficacy As soon as that change is made I would delete all my Amarr scout fits. Prior to falloff, I ran AM Scout roughly 25% of my time in pubs and 50-75% of my time in PC. I now run it 0% of the time, and I'm not alone in this. The suit's usage rates have plummeted with good reason; its former strength and role have been greatly devalued. If the precision bonus were changed to a biotics bonus, I guarantee you'd see a spike in AM Scout use, both in pubs and PC. Further, if Rattati followed through with the Myo jump changes, biotic AM builds would become incredibly fun to run. That may be so, but it would still ruin my playstyle. I want good enough precision to spot most scouts, the ability to dampen well and good speed. To my knowledge, no other suits can do that well enough. I don't think it makes sense to completely refocus a suit just because it got somewhat broken by the first iteration of scan falloff. Better to adjust the scan range and keep the suit within its intended niche. I already specced out of the cal scout once, due to the loss of precision bonus. It would really suck to have a bait and switch pulled on me yet again. We were more-or-less told that "360 degree wallhack scans" have to go. I'd be thrilled to see Rattati make an exception for the AM Scout. He has good reason to, as its sole strength (counter-infiltration) was crippled by Falloff. Not to say we shouldn't ask, but I don't see that happening. Alternatively, tuning Falloff by extending inner ring range (or reversing the Range Extender nerf) could create new balance problems. Firstly, we'd see the role we're trying to fix (AM Scout Recon) immediately replaced by the Logi (equal scan strength in practice, better scan range, greater build flexibility, far greater squad utility). Secondly, we'd see improved performance by already dominant Heavy+Logi blobs. Lastly, we'd introduce unreasonable risk level to backstab play. I don't see an easy fix here, Void. If we've ruled that "360 degree wallhack scans" have to go, then they should stay gone. In which case, the AM Scout should get a new role to fill and a perk overhaul to fit it. Well, in that case, I'd like to know exactly what "360 degree wallhack scans have to go" means. Does it mean... That the recent range nerf/falloff implementation removed them? Ie. that it's okay to have good precision as long as you don't have too long a scan range? Or... That no one should be allowed to have a good enough precision to see most other players on their passive scans, regardless of range? If option 1 is true, and passive scans are fine as is - according to Rattati - then I'm completely fine with the current status quo. I wouldn't mind more range, but I really don't feel all that encumbered by the current scan range. I constantly visually scan my surroundings and listen for sounds of nearby enemies anyway, so scanning further out isn't all that important. My current 18 dB precision allows me to spot poorly dampened shotgunners and nova knifers as they pass into my middle scan circle, and most other suits out to 30 meters. That's fine, as long as I'm suitably dampened myself. The multitude of hours I've spent honing my skills and playstyle has made me a quite decent player, but surely I'm not so insanely kick-ass that I'm the only player that can do well with the Amarr scout in its current incarnation. If option 2 is true...well that just doesn't make any sense, unless another overhaul of everyone's scan stats is incoming. The caldari scout can be fit to scan at 17.9 precision out to 33.75 meters, while ducking all but one of the proto active scanners without fitting even one dampener. Fit one dampener and a kincat, and it's at a profile of 20.08 and sprints faster than most of my amarr scout fits. Also, the logis are able to scan at pretty low precision, too, if fit right. When it comes to tuning scan range, why does it have to be done by tuning scan ring boundaries or range extenders? Aren't both working with percentages of the suit's base scan range? If so, why not give the amarr scout a couple of extra meters of base scan range, leaving others as is? So, assuming option 1 is true: I don't see any point in removing the Amarr scout scan precision bonus. If it does, as you suggest, get changed to a biotics module bonus, then those better be damned good bonuses to make up for it (or be in addition to the current scan bonus). It already has stamina up the wazoo, so there's no point in fitting cardiac regs. Bonuses to kincats would be potentially game breaking, since hit detection etc. seems to struggle enough with the speeds we run at now. The only other biotics related bonuses I can think of that won't require a lot of coding are: A bonus to blue bottles/melee modules (can't remember their name) as they are now. This better be a considerable bonus, since otherwise the low melee damage on a scout suit isn't really worth spending a slot boosting ATM. A bonus to stamina expenditure when jumping. This would be cool for traveling fast through cities and other places with low hurdles, but would almost certainly be widely abused by excessive bunny hopping around other suits to avoid getting hit. If blue bottles are given a jump height effect in addition to increased damage, a bonus to these would be cool. However, it would have to be a hefty bonus, since I can already make most jumps I need to make at medium heights, and the next useful height to be able to reach is straight to the roof of low buildings. A bonus to ladder climb speed. Useful, but again needs to be quite noticeable to be worthy of one of the two precious high slots on the amarr scout.
Protected Void Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 330	Posted - 2015.01.03 12:55:00 - [4] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: :: shortcut :: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2547567#post2547567 ^ Prototype usage trends. GA, CA, and MN Scouts present as fairly balanced against one another. The AM Scout is less healthy and appears to be trending downward. Should its usage continue to slump, something will have to change. Time will tell. A base scan range buff to the AM Scout would absolutely help; +5m to match current Logi seems reasonable. We should ask, but we should also have a backup plan in the likely event that we're shot down. As for swapping precision for a biotics bonus, I'm thinking +5% to +7% efficacy per level; max sprint speed would be just under 12 m/s. PC usage would increase as the AM Scout would replace the GA Scout as the PC Uplink runner. Pub usage would increase as the myo-jump changes (fingers crossed) would make for especially fun gameplay. 5 meters seems like a reasonable request. I've seen those statistics you linked to, and they're a decent indication of popularity, of course. But that's what they are; an indication, not an absolute blueprint. I buy about one proto suit for every two hundred advanced suit, so most of my actual amarr scout usage isn't included in them. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other players with similar numbers. I'd like to see overall stats for suits of all levels. Also, I think it's not necessarily realistic to see the same usage numbers for a precision based suit as for other suits. The kneejerk reaction for the average player seems to be to stack HP, and - in my opinion - that's pointless on an amarr scout.