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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1870
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Posted - 2014.12.30 13:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Nobody can deny it.
The other sidearms continue to lag behind the SMG in performance and use. It is used more than all other sidearms combined! It is because its almost as good as a Light Weapon. The ACR. Its just slightly worse.
I don't however, think that the SMG is OP. It is at the level sidearms should be at, IMO.
But, he other sidearms need buffs. All of them. Maybe not Knives, because they are so different. But the IoP, ScP, BoP, and Magsec need buffs. The Flaylock is too different for me to really touch on, but it foes feel roughly balanced with the MD... I'm not sure.
Make them perform similar to their Light Weapon counterpart, in the same way the SMG performs strikingly similar to the ACR. The only big difference between the two should be the range.
The SMG vs ACR:
105.8% Damage. 83% RoF. DPS: 88.1% 117.6% Magazine Size. 55% Range. 115% Reload Time. Very Similar fitting costs. Freakishly similar.
Without further adieu, I present my proposed Sidearm stats.
GÇóMagsec SMG(to be like the ARR)GÇó Damage: 40.2 Damage RoF: 500 DPS: 335 Mag: 68 Range: ??/53/125m Reload: 3.7s Spool Time: 0.30s Similar CPU/PG requirements. CPU: 26/41/77 PG: 6/12/14
GÇóScrambler Pistol(To be like ScR, roughly)GÇó Damage: 68.8 RoF: 500 RoF tDPS: 573.1 Headshot: 375% Mag: 10 Range: 41/53/125m Reload Time:2.875s Very similar Fitting Costs. CPU: 29/53/92 PG: 7/16/20 *Trades in the the charge shot to lose the heat gauge. *Trades in 71% of magazine size for headshot multiplier.
GÇóIon Pistol(to be like TacAR, roughly)GÇó Damage: 70 RoF: 500 RoF tDPS: 583.3 Headshot: 225% Mag: 16 Range: 38/50/125m Reload Time: 3.45 Heat Threshold: 100 Heat per second: 57 Overheats in: 1.8 seconds, or 15 shots. Very similar Fitting Costs. CPU: 23/47/ 90 PG: 3/6/13 *Gains a Charge Shot for the price of a heat gauge. *No longer instantly overheats after Charged shot. Behaves more like ScR in this regard. *Trades in 33% of magazine size for headshot multiplier.
GÇóBolt PistolGÇó Damage: 229 RoF: 148.82 DPS: 568 Headshot: 250% Mag: 4 Range: ??/55/125m Reload Time: 4.0s Spool Time: 0.4s Very similar Fitting Costs CPU: PG: *Since there is no TacRR to model it after, I just decided to keep the overall feel of the weapon, and just make it as good as the other two pistols.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
20588
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Posted - 2014.12.30 13:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
The thought of significantly buffing the bolt pistol after the previous fiasco makes my blood run cold.
Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1870
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Posted - 2014.12.30 13:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The thought of significantly buffing the bolt pistol after the previous fiasco makes my blood run cold. I'm only trying to make it behave at the same level as the other two.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6662
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
No. Both the Scrambler Pistol, Ion Pistol and Bolt Pistol are great in close quarters. When I'm running a Rifle I generally switch to a pistol for close quarters. They're stronger than the light weapons of their respective fractions within their effective range.
The MagSec is bad against shields but as long as you get through those and attack the shields then you have a good weapon.
The Flaylock is in a similar place as the MagSec. You can't really take out an advanced or proto suit with one magazine, but you can finish off any suit without shields disturbingly well.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1870
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:No. Both the Scrambler Pistol, Ion Pistol and Bolt Pistol are great in close quarters. When I'm running a Rifle I generally switch to a pistol for close quarters. They're stronger than the light weapons of their respective fractions within their effective range.
The MagSec is bad against shields but as long as you get through those and attack the shields then you have a good weapon.
The Flaylock is in a similar place as the MagSec. You can't really take out an advanced or proto suit with one magazine, but you can finish off any suit without shields disturbingly well. Why use anything but SMGs right now?
Give me some good reasons. Ones that are better than the reasons to use an SMG.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1677
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
other side arms are definately not lacking
e.g. SMG: 385 dps MagSec: ~370dps, 50% more range, easier to fit.. yes 4% less dps (minor, you wont even notice) with huge benefits.
only "slightly" worse than ACR? ACR has almost double the effective range and ~14% more dps. fitting is about equal, depends on your suit (ACR is less PG heavy, require more CPU though) |
KING CHECKMATE
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
6629
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
I havent used the SMG for months now.
It seems to do little for me vs the Flaylock Pistol or Bolt pistol. Weapons that give me area denial or/and the ability to reduce anyone's armor down to 0 with only 4 shots.
Bu the rest of the sidearms? well, i guess you might be right...
Playing as : Calmando, Calscout & Calassault.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1872
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:other side arms are definately not lacking e.g. SMG: 385 dps MagSec: ~370dps, 50% more range, easier to fit.. yes 4% less dps (minor, you wont even notice) with huge benefits. only "slightly" worse than ACR? ACR has almost double the effective range and ~14% more dps. fitting is about equal, depends on your suit (ACR is less PG heavy, require more CPU though) Fizzer XCIV wrote:Give me some good reasons. Ones that are better than the reasons to use an SMG. reasons to not use the SMG: -you need an SMG with more range -you need a sidearm that require less fitting cost
Then explain to me why the SMG sees 7-8x more use than the Magsec. And more use than ALL OTHER SIDEARMS COMBINED. SMGs alone make up more than half the sidearms on the field, and there are 7 sidearms available for use.
I don't know, but to me that level of disparity is a clear sign that there is an issue with sidearm balance. I don't think the SMG is OP. I really don't. So to me, the obvious issue is that all other sidearms are underperforming.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1678
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote: I want you to take a look at the Breach SMG and compare it to the Magsec. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that there is any reason to use the Magsec. Literally EVERYTHING is better! Except damage, which is only 1 point better for the Magsec...
it is the same as with the regular SMG, Magsec iseasier to fit, has 50% more range in exchange for minor ~3,4% less dps. |
Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1875
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: I want you to take a look at the Breach SMG and compare it to the Magsec. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that there is any reason to use the Magsec. Literally EVERYTHING is better! Except damage, which is only 1 point better for the Magsec...
it is the same as with the regular SMG, Magsec iseasier to fit, has 50% more range in exchange for minor ~3,4% less dps.
Did you even look at the stats? Because the fact that you are still trying to defend yourself is making me believe you haven't. Its a complete wash. The SMG is just hands down the superior sidearm.
And I'm going to be brutally honest. If you actually believe the others are performing on its level, you have mental issues(are ********).
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1875
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote: beside that, there was a bug with the magsec skills not working which made people stay with SMG. simple.
Its been fixed for months, yet there has been no noticeable increase in use. The weapon is broken. Admit it.
Same with the Ion Pistol. Even after its hefty buff, it's hardly being used, months afterwords.
The Scrambler Pistol used be be used about as much as the SMG, but since its meganerf, it only sees about 20% that the SMG does.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1678
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: I want you to take a look at the Breach SMG and compare it to the Magsec. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that there is any reason to use the Magsec. Literally EVERYTHING is better! Except damage, which is only 1 point better for the Magsec...
it is the same as with the regular SMG, Magsec iseasier to fit, has 50% more range in exchange for minor ~3,4% less dps. Did you even look at the stats? Because the fact that you are still trying to defend yourself is making me believe you haven't. Its a complete wash. The SMG is just hands down the superior sidearm. And I'm going to be brutally honest. If you actually believe the others are performing on its level, you have mental issues(are ********). do you even math? because the fact that you still not grasp it is making everyone believe that you dont |
Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1875
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: I want you to take a look at the Breach SMG and compare it to the Magsec. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that there is any reason to use the Magsec. Literally EVERYTHING is better! Except damage, which is only 1 point better for the Magsec...
it is the same as with the regular SMG, Magsec iseasier to fit, has 50% more range in exchange for minor ~3,4% less dps. Did you even look at the stats? Because the fact that you are still trying to defend yourself is making me believe you haven't. Its a complete wash. The SMG is just hands down the superior sidearm. And I'm going to be brutally honest. If you actually believe the others are performing on its level, you have mental issues(are ********). do you even math? because the fact that you still not grasp it is making everyone believe that you dont
Its official. You're ******* ********. Welcome to my long ass block list. Bye.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1678
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Jack McReady wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: I want you to take a look at the Breach SMG and compare it to the Magsec. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that there is any reason to use the Magsec. Literally EVERYTHING is better! Except damage, which is only 1 point better for the Magsec...
it is the same as with the regular SMG, Magsec iseasier to fit, has 50% more range in exchange for minor ~3,4% less dps. Did you even look at the stats? Because the fact that you are still trying to defend yourself is making me believe you haven't. Its a complete wash. The SMG is just hands down the superior sidearm. And I'm going to be brutally honest. If you actually believe the others are performing on its level, you have mental issues(are ********). do you even math? because the fact that you still not grasp it is making everyone believe that you dont Its official. You're ******* ********. Welcome to my long ass block list. Bye. its official, you do not even know how to use basic math. welcome to the long list of uneducated.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
1229
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:No. Both the Scrambler Pistol, Ion Pistol and Bolt Pistol are great in close quarters.
SCP is in sad shape in any range. I have abandoned it completely. Previous to nerfs, I used it exclusively. SCP needs a little love.
ISK Trader
channel: blitz
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1875
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't understand how anyone can look at this and even try to pass it of as "working as intended".
Like, I understand some weapons will be used more than others, thats just how things are. I dont ever expect the Ion Pistol or ScP to be used as much as the SMG. But this goes far and beyond that. This level of disparity is absurd. The disparity is a dead giveaway that there is something wrong, and trying to say there isn't something wrong, is either stupid or biased.
It feels like to me like the same problem we had with the RR. Such an absurdly large portion of the community used it that nobody wanted to admit it was an issue. 40% of people were using the RR, and they wanted to keep things in their favor, at the cost of diversity. And that's some ****** up ****.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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Sleepy Shadow
Qualified Scrub
221
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Then explain to me why the SMG sees 7-8x more use than the Magsec. And more use than ALL OTHER SIDEARMS COMBINED.
ItGÇÖs a wonderful spray and pray weapon. People like that. Even the Mag requires more aim than that thing. And thatGÇÖs probably the ultimate reason for the disparity; a lot of sidearms require precision aiming. Any pistol requires you to follow the target. Against those GÇ£Mongrels on crackGÇ¥ (or whatever they were affectionately called not long ago) a pistol doesnGÇÖt feel so good if you canGÇÖt track. And Flaylock is not to everyoneGÇÖs taste. SMG is simply very easy to use, to stay on target (mostly anyway) and has a favorable damage profile. Most people use sidearms after using their main and usually youGÇÖre chewing through their armour at that point. But thatGÇÖs just my take on it.
I use a lot of different sidearms, each of them has good and bad qualities. The only one that I donGÇÖt really use is the Flaylock. Should probably give that a go sometime. And Magsec is a very good sidearm, I use it on my heavy fits as it has better range and more importantly, better accuracy at range. I didnGÇÖt use it for a while because it had broken bonuses and probably a lot of people abandoned it for that reason. I recently started using it again (well, I recently started playing again) and it is a very strong gun. Will test it on my AV fit again when I get home.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ. MAGIC!! Is the answer to all your questions
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Edau Skir2
Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic
233
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
What?! SMG's are rubbish! I much Prefer the Magsec, I get many more kills with that than I do any other sidearm. Including the BrSMG.
Resident pasty smasher
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Fizzer XCIV
Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback
1876
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sleepy Shadow wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Then explain to me why the SMG sees 7-8x more use than the Magsec. And more use than ALL OTHER SIDEARMS COMBINED. ItGÇÖs a wonderful spray and pray weapon. People like that. Even the Mag requires more aim than that thing. And thatGÇÖs probably the ultimate reason for the disparity; a lot of sidearms require precision aiming. Any pistol requires you to follow the target. Against those GÇ£Mongrels on crackGÇ¥ (or whatever they were affectionately called not long ago) a pistol doesnGÇÖt feel so good if you canGÇÖt track. And Flaylock is not to everyoneGÇÖs taste. SMG is simply very easy to use, to stay on target (mostly anyway) and has a favorable damage profile. Most people use sidearms after using their main and usually youGÇÖre chewing through their armour at that point. But thatGÇÖs just my take on it. I use a lot of different sidearms, each of them has good and bad qualities. The only one that I donGÇÖt really use is the Flaylock. Should probably give that a go sometime. And Magsec is a very good sidearm, I use it on my heavy fits as it has better range and more importantly, better accuracy at range. I didnGÇÖt use it for a while because it had broken bonuses and probably a lot of people abandoned it for that reason. I recently started using it again (well, I recently started playing again) and it is a very strong gun. Will test it on my AV fit again when I get home. Then we have a different issue. The sidearms aren't being correctly balanced for skill. Even with the higher skill requirements of the others, they should be seeing more use than they are. Again, I understand that they isn't going to be equal use among them, but a wide difference like this is an obvious problem.
I wish CCP would keep us updated with more metrics so we could just look at the average kills per spawn a weapon gets. But they don't.
The role of Caldari suits is to whine on the forums.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6664
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
More people use the SMG because everyone is already skilled into it. Why would you use a MagSec SMG if you already have an SMG to level V profiency? It's the same with the Ion Pistol: if you already have the Scrambler Pistol skilled up then there is little reason to skill into the Ion Pistol.
They aren't bad weapons, they are just trying to fill slots that have been taken by weapons for months.
The same thing has happened with the AR. People continued to use the AR universally for months even after the Scrambler Rifle, Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle had been available.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
14727
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote: Why use anything but SMGs right now?
Give me some good reasons. Ones that are better than the reasons to use an SMG.
Provided that you have a good trigger finger the Ion Pistol can kill targets very quickly (faster than the SMG, even). Then there's the headshot damage, which lets you OHK quite a bit of suits with the BP/BSCP.
Then there's personal preference, etc, etc.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
6664
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Posted - 2014.12.30 15:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: Why use anything but SMGs right now?
Give me some good reasons. Ones that are better than the reasons to use an SMG.
Provided that you have a good trigger finger the Ion Pistol can kill targets very quickly (faster than the SMG, even). Then there's the headshot damage, which lets you OHK quite a bit of suits with the BP/BSCP. Then there's personal preference, etc, etc. Indeed. The original poster is trying to use mathematics to prove his point. Though he has over looked the fact that paper and practice are very different. You cannot only base your experience off of paper because in practice there are variables that are near impossible to comprehend and these variables will scew the original perception.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Sequal's Back
Les Desanusseurs
43
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Posted - 2014.12.30 16:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think all the variants except the Breach one of the ScP need a big damage buff, and the magsec too. Its kick is still really high. |
Zindorak
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
1457
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Posted - 2014.12.30 18:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Knives are good. ScP needs to be like it was in 1.7 Magsec needs a buff not a nerf like what happened in Echo Iop isn't bad and neither is BP Flaylock isn't bad either SMG is really good tho the Breach normal and even nerfed assault still beat other sidearms
Pokemon master and Tekken Lord
Give me da iskiez
Gk0 Scout yay :)
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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
284
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Posted - 2014.12.30 18:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
The SMG is the go-to side arm because it serves as the best finisher of them all in the most situations. You can just whip it out and start doing damage (enhanced against armor no less, which is the damage type most useful for finishing weapons).
The Flaylock pistol is probably second best, because again, quick damage with armor profile, however its situationally ineffective (mostly due to terrain, if you cant aim at feet of enemy it tends to be difficult to finish them off).
Ion pistol I have not tried but my friends seem to like it quite a bit, and it seems pretty deadly at close ranges. Its range is really the limiting factor but it seems pretty nice as a sidearm.
The bolt pistol is a **** sidearm for most fits, however for some fringe fits its actually incredibly nice to have. I have been using this on my shotgun and hmg fits and it gives you a decent ranged option to finish off people running or people trying to engage from outside your optimal.
Nova knives are great for stealthy scout fits, you can cut someone up and bail before anyone really notices if you have any kind of scan superiority.
The rest of the sidearms are ****. MagSec emulates the SMG, but has a charge time and less dps, making it less useful as a sidearm. Scrambler pistol just seems to have not enough damage (have not tried any but the standard version, breach and assault may be better).
I'd say buff magsec somehow (this needs to be done carefully and in an inventive way, since it needs to be made useful AS A SIDEARM, which is difficult for something with a charge mechanic). Scrambler just needs a damage buff perhaps, but its profile is not very good for a sidearm, not really sure what to do with it either.
DID I MISS A SIDEARM? IF I DID ITS PROBABLY REALLY BAD. |
Indy Strizer
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
232
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Posted - 2014.12.30 18:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Magsec might just need variants honestly. |
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