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Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 709	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:56:00 - [1] - Quote Holy Cow! CCP Rattati posted this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2512362#post2512362 Quote: We are working on metalevel brackets of gameplay, imagine a WoW dungeon only in reverse. Tier 1 - no fittings above 100 (sum of all equipment on the fitting) - average rewards Tier 2 - no fittings above 200 - high rewards Tier 3 - free for all - very high rewards Ok, I will first explain why this is BROKEN and how it WILL BE ABUSED and then I will offer a better way of doing it that will not only counter the abuse, but provide a way for even veterans to benefit from cross-training into new options... First the broken aspect... As everyone knows, when you skill into stuff in this game you get benefits to gameplay. Look at the Assault Rifle. Without any skills, you have way more kick, less accuracy, less ammo reserves, longer reload times, and less damage than a dude with skills at 5 in his, even though you're both using the same gear. All the meta level restriction does is prevent the lower skilled player from using higher meta gear to try to overcome that disadvantage!!! Also the only other side-effect of a lower meta limit is that since I'll also have all my fitting skills maxed I would normally be able to fit more stuff, but now I'll never reach the PG/CPU limits as I'm limited to lower meta gear that uses less PG/CPU. But here is the abusive part that will be counter-productive to encouraging new players to join the game. As everyone one knows, the top 3 players (on both the winning and loosing sides) of every match, as shown by the end of match screen, will receive more combined ISK than the ISK earned by the other 13 players in the match!!! So if I'm a veteran with maxed out skills and I want to earn some quick ISK of some stupid newbs, then I will fit free/militia/tier 1 gear and join your "Tier 1" level of play. And as a result I will be "GOD amongst ants" as my level 5 skills will own the crap outa all of them!!! I will farm them fro WPs and hit the top 3 of every match and thus make new players hate life in this game. I will earn the lion's share of ISK payouts and become a negative impact on the new player experience! All because the above scheme ENCOURAGES IT!!!! Stop that kinda stupid thinking CCP Rattati!! Come to your senses, please! Now for the proposed fix to the above... Meta level of gear is only one aspect of the imbalance and honestly it's the smaller one. By the time someone can even use the proto-gear, they already have the pre-requisite skills up there at level 5 to go with it and it is the SKILLS that are creating the imbalance, NOT the meta level of the gear. So creating tiers of play is a good step forward, however basing it on meta of builds ONLY is wrong. Instead skill points need to be taken into account also. But just using a simple total skill points method is also wrong. If someone has over 10 million SP into HAV's but less than 1 million into dropsuits and light weapons, then they will get screwed over on matches where they don't use their HAV. So the solution is to use the skill level of skills that are used in the dropsuit fittings. As in if you have level 5 skill in Minmatar Assault Dropsuit and the fitting is using a Millitia Minmatar Assautl Dropsuit then you add in 5 points for level 5 in that suit. Now if he's also using a Militia Combat Rifle with that suit and has level 5 in all the associated combat rifle skills (maybe not include the fitting optimization) then you add in +5 pts for every single one of those skill also! So that would be a total of +25 if you have all 5 skills related to combat rifle at level 5 (+30 if you count the fitting optimization). Also if you fit a light weapon damage module (lets say I am a min-maxing douche-bag and go with all militia gear and then throw on two or three complex damage mods) then I should have my light weapons skill level of 5 added in for every time I put another damage modifier on as well as multiply that by every weapon that it benefits (so a commando with 3 complex damage mods and wielding two light weapons will incur a +30 point rating - assuming that was possible, which it''s not). But now you see that this way of using the skillpoints that AFFECT the items and equipment on the fitting. Hell you could even still add in the meta level of equipment to the total or even use it as a multiplier as in if I have level 5 with a rifle and I use a mtea level 2 version of that rifle then the points added to the rating = 2 {meta level of gun} X 5 {level of affecting skill} = 10pts. Repeat this for each of the 5 rifle skills (assuming all are at level 5) and using a meta level 2 gun for a fully skilled player is about 50 pts in rating cost. Meanwhile a player that only has like 3 of the skills at level 3 for that same rifle is being rated at 2 X 3 X 3 = 18 pts... That lower level player could upgrade to a higher level weapon and still fall under the points limit if they wanted to waste the ISK for it in order to become a "better match" for the higher skilled player. New CRV Tiers: Tier 1 < 101 CRV - lowest rewards Tier 2 < 251 CRV - moderate rewards Tier 3 anything - highest rewards continued...
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 709	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:56:00 - [2] - Quote A few notes to make about this new system... Don't call it a meta level rating - doing that will confuse new players as they need to understand that it's based on both the meta level of the equipment/suit and the skills associated with them are being used in this rating. Instead call it a COMBAT RATING VALUE (CRV). CRV will then be based on skills AND meta values There is an issue for logistics players as they will have more equipment and more skills factored into this CRV calculation. However this is less of an issue if they understand the limitations and just use lower meta guns etc. This actually makes puts them into more of a choosing situation as to what is more important for them to accomplish on the battlefield. This method does NOT account for vehicles. But neither does the originally posted method by CCP Rattati. For vehicles I would suggest using a similar system of meta level of the item (the vehicle or gun or module) times the level of the associated skill to use it and put it into a separate CRV rating for just the vehicle. Then have a different CRV limit for the vehhicles that are allowed into the match. This would have the added benefit of optionally tweaking the set values for both dropsuits and vehicles separately and who know, maybe create vehicle biased matches etc in the future. But the end point of all of this is DO NOT just total up the meta of the gear and call it a day. That sort of "simple fix" is what opens this game up for all the abusive gameplay that occurs right now. You won't make a better environment for the new players, but a worse one.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 709	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:57:00 - [3] - Quote {RESERVED}
Ku Shala The Generals 1075	Posted - 2014.12.16 19:45:00 - [4] - Quote so we re all driving nascars but because im a better driver you dont think we re driving the same car? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Dubya Guy Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 110	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:55:00 - [5] - Quote I agree Rattati's idea won't work for the reasons you state Let me make sure I understand your revision: I pick a battle that is restricted to a certain CRV. While in that battle, I could only use fittings for which my accumulated skills required to use that fitting were at or below that CRV level? Most would agree that coordination > experience/skill > gear, in determining which team wins battles, and lopsided battles are more a result of one side having more coordination and/or experience/skill than the other. Your solution shifts the focus away from gear, to the "experience/skill" level, which I think is a better idea. +1 I still think having a mixture of players (experienced->inexperienced) in a battle adds value to the game. I still think the problem with NPE is noobs are not LEARNING as much as they could in those situations, and that is a result of a deficiency in coordination with experienced players. I am still waiting for the hero that will provide the perfect solution to this (Platoons? better squad training in academy? chat channel for noobs? incentivizing corp membership? ...) FPS = First Person Support. Kills win battles but it's kinda hard to kill if you're dead and out of ammo.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 711	Posted - 2014.12.16 22:09:00 - [6] - Quote Dubya Guy wrote: I agree Rattati's idea won't work for the reasons you state Let me make sure I understand your revision: I pick a battle that is restricted to a certain CRV. While in that battle, I could only use fittings for which my accumulated skills required to use that fitting were at or below that CRV level? Most would agree that coordination > experience/skill > gear, in determining which team wins battles, and lopsided battles are more a result of one side having more coordination and/or experience/skill than the other. Your solution shifts the focus away from gear, to the "experience/skill" level, which I think is a better idea. +1 I still think having a mixture of players (experienced->inexperienced) in a battle adds value to the game. I still think the problem with NPE is noobs are not LEARNING as much as they could in those situations, and that is a result of a deficiency in coordination with experienced players. I am still waiting for the hero that will provide the perfect solution to this (Platoons? better squad training in academy? chat channel for noobs? incentivizing corp membership? ...) Oh I totally agree that my proposal above won't fix everything. I stated that it's only a better alternative to the lump all meta values of gear together to create arbitrary tiers of gameplay... The BEST fix for DUST 514 would be to get a REAL VOICE PROVIDER and run it as an OUT OF GAME TOOL. The only real reason the NPE will ever get any better is through a better method of communication. Unfortunately there are SOOO many things wrong withthe current implementation of the chat channels and the in game voice that it would be a completely new topic to cover them all. The communication in this game SUCKS!!!! And until it gets fixed, the NPE will always suffer. I said this for two years directly to the CCP devs at EVE Vegas and they still are not getting it. It's annoying, but it's not an "exciting" part of the game to program for and they don't want to deal with it for whatever reason. Unfortunately it is the single MAJOR obstacle to training new players to learn how to play the damned game. Without improvements to it, you will never improve the NPE to go with it. PERIOD.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 711	Posted - 2014.12.16 22:18:00 - [7] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: so we re all driving nascars but because im a better driver you dont think we re driving the same car? I think you are confusing the in game skills with the out of game skilz. As in if I have level 1 (in game) skill with Assault Rifle Operation, then I reduce my "kick" or recoil by 5% per level for a total of 5% reduction in recoil when using full auto fire. However a character (not player) that is (in game) skilled to level 5 in Assault Rifle Operation will reduce their recoil by 25%. This means that the veteran already has a 20% bonus with the SAME RIFLE when compared to the new guy. Now of course a player (not character) can be (out of game) skilled enough with FPS's to be able to compensate for the recoil by having good gunplay and using tricks like tapping the trigger very fast instead of holding it down. But in my examples above I'm assuming the same player using the same out of games skills on two different characters with two different skill levels. Does that make more sense?
castba Rogue Instincts 682	Posted - 2014.12.16 23:46:00 - [8] - Quote Why not just have SP restrictions on the meta levels Rattati proposes? Tier 1. <100 meta = <7m max SP Tier 2. <200 meta = <15m max SP Tier 3 = no max, obviously. Vets can still use low cost fits to get isk but won't be farming low level players to do so (so no real change at tier 3 to current situation) "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 714	Posted - 2014.12.17 00:36:00 - [9] - Quote castba wrote: Why not just have SP restrictions on the meta levels Rattati proposes? Tier 1. <100 meta = <7m max SP Tier 2. <200 meta = <15m max SP Tier 3 = no max, obviously. Vets can still use low cost fits to get isk but won't be farming low level players to do so (so no real change at tier 3 to current situation) Did you not read my full proposal above? If you had you would have seen: Quote: So creating tiers of play is a good step forward, however basing it on meta of builds ONLY is wrong. Instead skill points need to be taken into account also. But just using a simple total skill points method is also wrong. If someone has over 10 million SP into HAV's but less than 1 million into dropsuits and light weapons, then they will get screwed over on matches where they don't use their HAV. I took the idea of pure SP total and threw it away because it won't apply to as a simple figure. The game would end up penalizing a player who was trying to skill up and learn new things/stuff if they just used total SP earned. Instead it has to only account for the skillpoints that are being used in the setup that will be run by the character in that match. Not based on skillpoints that got spent on things like corporation management etc that cannot be used in that battle.
Ku Shala The Generals 1078	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:38:00 - [10] - Quote % bonus on basic modules is not that much of an advantage but in high tier levels your skill point levels will mean alot more. I look forward to this you will truly be able to test your skills in the 1 teir by not having a stacked advantage a complex extender is worth almost double the value of a basic, where a basic even with level 5 skills only gain an extra 8.5 hp per module. 3 stacked extenders wouldnt gain a single bullet of damage tank from an smg. this could work if they can tweek the right numbers for the tiers *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5464	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:53:00 - [11] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: As everyone one knows, the top 3 players (on both the winning and loosing sides) of every match, as shown by the end of match screen, will receive more combined ISK than the ISK earned by the other 13 players in the match!!! So... why not just change this? If your position on the leader board does not effect your payout, and your ISK per WP is lower in low Meta matches, then you would not do low Meta matches unless you couldn't make ISK in high meta matches; unless of course you are just doing Low Meta matches to pawn noobs, but even then your skills would not give you as much of an edge as you would have in a match now using a Proto suit. The playing field might not be level, but it would be a lot closer than it is now. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1143	Posted - 2014.12.17 17:57:00 - [12] - Quote I agree almost entirely Jadd. Ku: the difference between a PRO skilled player and an unskilled player is very noticeable. Consider that an unskilled player is also likely a new player and thus less versed in the game (ie, non-SP skilled), there is a large gap in effectiveness. Quite frankly, you being better at handling a controller is entirely unaccounted for, and shouldn't be accounted for either. Jadd's system is a good balance of invested SP and fitting value preventing the full brunt of invested SP impacting upon the system (ie, penalising a vehicle operator when they're not using a vehicle) and helping to balance the field when dealing with the high SP player dipping in to stomp on some newbies by forcing them to use even lower meta level fits. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 728	Posted - 2014.12.17 18:23:00 - [13] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: As everyone one knows, the top 3 players (on both the winning and loosing sides) of every match, as shown by the end of match screen, will receive more combined ISK than the ISK earned by the other 13 players in the match!!! So... why not just change this? If your position on the leader board does not effect your payout, and your ISK per WP is lower in low Meta matches, then you would not do low Meta matches unless you couldn't make ISK in high meta matches; unless of course you are just doing Low Meta matches to pawn noobs, but even then your skills would not give you as much of an edge as you would have in a match now using a Proto suit. The playing field might not be level, but it would be a lot closer than it is now. I agree that using meta levels is better than nothing, but it still won't fix the "noob-stomping" issue which was the original point of the fix. Basically the reason for implementing the fix using only meta levels becomes pointless. So I introduced a modification to the idea that would make it work "better" and apply to more than just the one thing. From your statement of, "...your ISK per WP is lower in low Meta matches, then you would not do low Meta matches unless you couldn't make ISK in high meta matches..." tells me that your point of view is from a "higher-level" of gameplay (otherwise known as 1337) than the majority of people that play this game. For you, you might be able to farm isk from the higher tier games all the time in a reliable way. For most, this is NOT the case. By implementing the tiered system based solely on meta points of the gear would create an opportunity for the rest of players not as good as you to try to exploit newer players and earn a steady income (maybe not as fabulously well off as winning in the high tiers) that is more reliable. And in a game like this where the spreadsheet masters are gonna penny pinch where ever they can, you can rest assured that they will avoid the risk of the higher tier matches (making even those less populated than they are now and thus ruining your fun and forcing even you to have to go to the lower tier matches lest you wait in longer queues for pickup games) and prefer the less risky and more reliable income of shooting at the new players. Does that kinda help put it into more prospective?
Banjo Robertson Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 372	Posted - 2014.12.17 19:48:00 - [14] - Quote I agree with a lot of what the OP is saying, but I also disagree. At most, any piece of gear will really only be 25% more effective than its base stats would normally be. You do also have to consider what would the limitations be on meta level, we only have the example given of 100, 200, unlimited. We don't know the exact numbers these refer to for combined meta level. I do think one funny consequence of this might be militia dropsuits with a proto weapon and nothing else equipped. I think its not absolutely 'fair' to only balance based on the gear used, but I think it is 'fair enough' for this type of game. Player skill for 'new' dust characters will vary from 'new to fps' to 'best at all fps' types of players.
Ku Shala The Generals 1078	Posted - 2014.12.17 20:17:00 - [15] - Quote the tiers are to stop the huge advantage a fully fitted protosuit has compared to an std/militia fit, not to stop experienced players from killing new players. Its a balance not an easy mode. the tier system will still implement match making based on mu. low meta modules have less effect because bonuses are percentage based other than tactical experience the difference between a new player and a veteran is minimal. like I said we are talking about a single bullet on a shield stacked suit with basic modules *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 729	Posted - 2014.12.17 21:35:00 - [16] - Quote Banjo Robertson wrote: I agree with a lot of what the OP is saying, but I also disagree. At most, any piece of gear will really only be 25% more effective than its base stats would normally be. You do also have to consider what would the limitations be on meta level, we only have the example given of 100, 200, unlimited. We don't know the exact numbers these refer to for combined meta level. I do think one funny consequence of this might be militia dropsuits with a proto weapon and nothing else equipped. I think its not absolutely 'fair' to only balance based on the gear used, but I think it is 'fair enough' for this type of game. Player skill for 'new' dust characters will vary from 'new to fps' to 'best at all fps' types of players. Ku Shala wrote: the tiers are to stop the huge advantage a fully fitted protosuit has compared to an std/militia fit, not to stop experienced players from killing new players. Its a balance not an easy mode. the tier system will still implement match making based on mu. low meta modules have less effect because bonuses are percentage based other than tactical experience the difference between a new player and a veteran is minimal. like I said we are talking about a single bullet on a shield stacked suit with basic modules I think you are both mixing up player (as in the person not the character in the game) skill at playing FPS's with the character's level of skill (in the game) with guns, modules, equipment, and dropsuits. Banjo, you say, "Player skill for 'new' dust characters will vary from 'new to fps' to 'best at all fps' types of players." As has been specifically pointed out, I'm assuming that someone who is "best at ll fps" but is on a brand new account in DUST 514 is being paired against someone else who is ALSO "best at all fps" but has around 20 million or more SP spent on their character in DUST. Now see the difference? The second one will have 25% bonuses as you put it to all the same stuff. Yeah it may not seem like much, but it all adds up. I agree that the meta level should also be a part of the equation, hence why I said to use the meta level as a multiplier. As in level 5 rifle operation times meta 5 rifle equals 25 pts, but if you have level 5 rifle operation and use a meta 1 rifle then it's only 5 pts. Big difference, see? Ku, you say, "...not to stop experienced players from killing new players..." which again is NOT what my proposed system does. you are again mixing up out of game personal skills with the TERM skills in the game and the bonuses they provide. There is a very clear and distinct difference that must be understood or else any fix is doomed to failure. It's not meant to be an "easy mode" for the new players (and by new I don't mean new to FPS, but new to DUST as most people that try DUST only do so because they already play Borderlands, Call of Duty, Battlefield, etc). Instead it is meant to provide a rating of the POTENTIAL of the gear when used by a CHARACTER (not the person, hell you could swap you for your parent or sibling and this rating will not factor that in at all, nor should it) that has a specific level of in game skills applied TO that gear. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's a better system then just relying on an already broken match-making system that requires constant tweaking based on the population that is using it.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 729	Posted - 2014.12.17 21:59:00 - [17] - Quote So I'll provide a quick illustration with a fully fit M-1 Scout (meta level 1) suit first as a fully skilled up level 5 veteran: The Minmatar Scout Dropsuit skill provides a "Scout Suit Bonus: 15% reduction to PG/CPU requirements of cloak per level Minmatar Scout Bonus: +5% to hacking speed and nova knife damage per level" so ALL of these factors need to be accounted for. If the dropsuit loadout does NOT include a nova knife or a cloak, then that factor would be +0 pts for CRV, but for my example I'll be fitting both. Since the other bonus (hacking speed) is always active, the CRV for it is too. Also maxed out skills with the knives as well as all guns and equipment are assumed as well, but all items will be the "standard/basic" or meta level 1 versions: Scout M-I with nova knives (basic), combat rifle (basic), cloak (basic), remote explosives (basic), a flux grenade (basic), a dampener (basic), a precision enhancer (basic), kin cats (basic), and a shield extender (basic). This results in the following calculations: For the dropsuit = 1 (meta of suit) * 5 (level of skill) * 3 (number of suit and racial bonuses being applied) = 30 pts For the knives = 1 (meta of knives) * 5 (level of every affecting skill averaged together) * 2 (number of knive skills applied) = 10pts For the rifle = 1 (meta of rifle) * 5 (level of every affecting skill averaged together) * 5 (number of rifle skills applied [NOTE: I'm not counting the fitting optimization skill, but if you want to, then just add one to this number]) = 25 pts For the cloak = 1 (meta of the cloak) * 5 (level of cloak operation skill) * 1 (only one skill affects this for now) = 5 pts For the RE's = 1 (meta of REs) * 5 (average of the two skills used) * 2 (the two RE skills applied) = 10 pts For the Flux = 1 (meta of Flux) * 5 (average of the two skills used) * 2 (the two skills applied) = 10 pts For the Damp = 1 (meta of the Damp) * 5 (for the skill) * 1 ( only one skill) = 5 pts For the Enhancer = 1 (meta of Enhancer) * 5 (for the skill) * 1 (only one skill) = 5pts For the Kin Cat = 1 (meta of Kin Cat) * 5 (for the skill) 1 (only one skill) = 5 pts For the Shield Extender = 1 (meta of the Extender) 5 (for the skill) * 1 (only one skill) = 5 pts But that's not all, each of the "passive" dropsuit upgrade skills needs to be accounted for as well, so: Systems Hacking = 5 (maxed skill) - all the below are also assumed maxed at 5 Precision Enhancement = 5 Profile Dampening = 5 Range Amplification = 5 This gives a grand total of 130 pts of CRV rating! Doing the same for a new character (not necessarily a new player) with only level 3 in the operation skills and nothing else for the applicable skills (and none of the secondary/tertiary skills) and none of the passive ones gives the following: For the dropsuit = 1 (meta of suit) * 3 (level of skill) * 3 (number of suit and racial bonuses being applied) = 9 pts For the knives = 1 (meta of knives) * 3 (level of every affecting skill averaged together) * 1 (number of knive skills applied) = 3pts For the rifle = 1 (meta of rifle) * 3 (level of every affecting skill averaged together) * 1 (number of rifle skills applied) = 3 pts For the cloak = 1 (meta of the cloak) * 3 (level of cloak operation skill) * 1 (only one skill affects this for now) = 3 pts For the RE's = 1 (meta of REs) * 3 (average of the skills used) * 1 (the RE skills applied) = 3 pts For the Flux = 1 (meta of Flux) * 3 (average of the skills used) * 1 (the skills applied) = 3 pts For the Damp = 1 (meta of the Damp) * 3 (for the skill) * 1 ( only one skill) = 3 pts For the Enhancer = 1 (meta of Enhancer) * 3 (for the skill) * 1 (only one skill) = 3 pts For the Kin Cat = 1 (meta of Kin Cat) * 3 (for the skill) 1 (only one skill) = 3 pts For the Shield Extender = 1 (meta of the Extender) 3 (for the skill) * 1 (only one skill) = 3 pts Passive skills all at level 1: Systems Hacking = 1 Precision Enhancement = 1 Profile Dampening = 1 Range Amplification = 1 For a grand total of 40 points of CRV rating! As you can see there is a HUGE difference. Assuming that the new player chooses to, they could upgrade ALL of the meta levels of the suit/weapons/modules/equipment to meta 3 (advanced) and still only total 112 CRV points! And that is the point of "leveling" the playing field in this method. The lower skillpoint character can be upgraded to match the higher skillpoint character by allowing them to have higher meta gear to make up for the skillpoint gap. Additionally it makes people who like the higher meta gear with their skills to go and find a "different playground" to play in that isn't the "pre-schooler's" playground. Obviously now that I've sat down and worked out the numbers, the previously set Tiers need to be adjusted a lot (as expected). Before they were - New CRV Tiers: Tier 1 < 101 CRV - lowest rewards Tier 2 < 251 CRV - moderate rewards Tier 3 anything - highest rewards Now they should be more like - New CRV Tiers: Tier 1 < 251 CRV - lowest rewards Tier 2 < 501 CRV - moderate rewards Tier 3 anything - highest rewards This causes another possible issue like using a more advanced dropsuit with less equipment slots due to its "built in" extra tank/speed etc due to its role. To counter this, a final suit-type multiplier could be used to normalize the different role-specific suits. Maybe something like (but not these numbers as I'm making them up on the fly): non-role specific dropsuit multiplier = 1.00 (this would be all the light, medium, and heavy suits) Scout multiplier = 1.10 Assault multiplier = 1.05 Logistics multiplier = 0.95 Commando multiplier = 1.05 Sentinel multiplier = 1.10 Again, these numbers are just wild spit-balling and even the idea of which should be more or less is irrelevant.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 729	Posted - 2014.12.17 22:01:00 - [18] - Quote Caveat... The above examples are for illustration purposes only. They are not perfect nor are they final. That is the job of CCP to determine. Hell they could determine the skill level multipliers for items to be based upon not only the affecting skill as I have above, but ALSO include all the per-requisite skills needed to get to that affecting skill as well. Thus a skill that required level 3 in another skill in the skill tree BEFORE you could learn level 1 of that skill would then add in those levels as well to the average of the affecting skills. There are many ways to skin this cat. Also the idea of the role-specific multiplier can be uses as a way to "TWEAK" settings on the fly after it is implemented to ensure that no one "class" of dropsuit dominates. But I hope that people can see through the messy presentation I have posted on this forum to recognize the core concept of what I'm proposing.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 733	Posted - 2014.12.19 17:21:00 - [19] - Quote Hmm... I see more threads starting on this topic, so I'm gonna bump this one in hopes that more input can be discussed about it.
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 382	Posted - 2014.12.19 17:49:00 - [20] - Quote The whole point is that your skills make you better. Its step 1 to tiericide. The only difference between a maxed proto AR and a non maxed proto AR is a little bit of damage and reload. Its way better than maxed proto versus militia. It never will and isn't so posed to be 100% fair. you still need to progress and earn better things. Gassault Calogi - Ranked #763 on the forums `- Open Beta Vet - 32mil sp - - GFC, GJR Approved -`

Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 136	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:14:00 - [21] - Quote I agree with your Idea Jadd. Hope CCP is looking at this. But I fear this might divide the highway into smaller lanes, each not touching the other, but we do not have enough cars to fill them up. What I mean is: the same people will only fight the same people repeatedly, and, because its only 3600 players on a Friday night, they will see the same names every match on their killfeed. Edit: lol. My English skills suck. Amarr Victor
Her Chosen Grade No.2 151	Posted - 2014.12.19 19:27:00 - [22] - Quote TL:DR Go make an alt, enter academy. People with the exact same meta level as you will still get wrecked by you,. ITS NOT THE GEAR OR META LEVEL! I plan to just farm the low level tier because it will no doubt be more efficient STRONG BOX ROLE CALL
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 733	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:30:00 - [23] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: TL:DR Go make an alt, enter academy. People with the exact same meta level as you will still get wrecked by you,. ITS NOT THE GEAR OR META LEVEL! I plan to just farm the low level tier because it will no doubt be more efficient And I KNOW that!!! This system is NOT MEANT to counter ANY of that, Her Chosen. It is meant to put two players of the SAME FPS level of experience outside of the game on a more even level of experience INSIDE of the game despite differences in skill points spent and ISK advantages. Here I'll lay it out for you in a specific example. Player A - A guy who is VERY well experienced in all FPS's to include Call of Duty, Battlefield, Counterstrike, Planetside, and now DUST514. He has a character with over 40 million SP that he's been playing on and off since the closed BETA of DUST514 with the Mordu's Legion Trials etc. Player B - A guy who is ALSO VERY well experienced in all FPS's to include Call of Duty, Battlefield, Counterstrike, Planetside, and now DUST514. He was also in the closed Mordu's Legion Beta etc. He's either making a new alt character to train into a different style of play or race of gear or maybe he deleted his old account 3 months ago and is back to try it again. Whatever the case, Player B only has 1.5 million SP to use at this point. Now the ONLY differences between Player A and Player B is that A has 40+ million SP and over 50 million ISK to buy suits, weapons, modules, and equipment; while B has only 1.5 million SP and less than 1 million ISK. Using the above examples of players A & B facing off against each other in today's public matches, then Player A (using full skills and full proto-loadout) will beat Player B about 9 times out of 10. (Also assuming that they are both playing solo.) So the ONLY thing this suggested "tier-level" of play will do is to make it so that there is a style of match where Player B will have a "better" chance of success. As in winning more than 1 time in 10, maybe even closer to 4 or 5 times in ten. This system is NOT meant to replace the ability of the person to actually play an FPS, or to think, or to cooperate with teammates or to prevent vets from playing together with non-vets in the DUST game. However it is meant to stop the proto-stomp mess that occurs now in public matches. Right now a new player (to DUST, not to FPS's) has to contend with the following: A disadvantage in knowledge of the maps. A disadvantage in skillpoints and the many bonuses they provide. A disadvantage in queue-syncing teams running roughshod over public matches. A disadvantage in meta level of equipment they can afford to use. A disadvantage in meta level of equipment that they can use due to skills. This system is meant to "help" a few of those things, but it won't fix them all. It's basically a better "match-making" system than the stupid one that CCP already has in the game based upon life-time warpoints etc. It's a way for the players to decide FOR THEMSELVES if they want to OPT-IN to higher tiers of play or to stay at the lower tiers of play. It also would provide veterans who want to try out new gear as they skill into it for the first time a place to go and not get totally owned over and over again. As for vet's farming the newbs, yeah it can still happen. But it won't be as easy AND there is less incentive. The vet will have to SEVERELY gimp himself to get under the CRV limitations (as shown above in my example where if a fully skilled vet uses all meta 1 gear in a scout suit, then they still add up to 130 CRV points, while a newb only totals 40 CRV points. This means that the newb has a better chance to kill the vet even if it is only 2 to 10 instead of 1 to 10 - it has effectively "doubled" the newb's chances from 1 to 2 out of 10. And don't forget that the payout for the vet is gonna look like crap to him as he's gonna earn less in the lower tiers than is possible in the higher tiers. In the "newb tier" the vet would have to use all BPO's or militia gear to even make a profit and that would "nerf" him some more too if he chose that. Finally, the APEX BPO's would have a CRV level that would push them to the next higher tiers most likely and thus they would end up being the "cheap suits" to use for the Tier 3 level of play and thus if a vet REALLY wanted to earn some ISK and salvage, they should earn an APEX BPO from the loyalty store and then use that for the tier 3 level of play which would reward more ISK than if they were to spend the same amount of time "owning newbs" with a militia BPO suit in the tier 1 games. Seriously, think about that last part about that last part... Let it sink in and you will see that once people have APEX's they will want to be in the tier 3 matches to earn more ISK per match rather than waste their time with the tier 1 matches.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 733	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:34:00 - [24] - Quote .
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 309	Posted - 2014.12.20 10:04:00 - [25] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: so we re all driving nascars but because im a better driver you dont think we re driving the same car? I dont know nascar ... but it should be extremely obvious that we all do NOT drive the same car. Jeez, have you even understood what SkillPoints do? The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5884	Posted - 2014.12.20 11:11:00 - [26] - Quote I find it hilarious how many people are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT of the OP. It's a good idea because it would put the excited 15m SP newbie in his shiniest proto against me, my quafe suits and maxed out core skills. More even odds for him. Fun ripping prototype gear in half for me. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 738	Posted - 2014.12.22 15:50:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I find it hilarious how many people are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT of the OP. It's a good idea because it would put the excited 15m SP newbie in his shiniest proto against me, my quafe suits and maxed out core skills. More even odds for him. Fun ripping prototype gear in half for me. Yes! This is what I would hope would happen lots.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3418	Posted - 2014.12.22 16:59:00 - [28] - Quote Tiericide of dropsuits > Meta level locking EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Ku Shala The Generals 1087	Posted - 2014.12.22 17:59:00 - [29] - Quote look I dont know where your numbers are coming from or why you keep accusing me of mixing up skill points with skill, but you are comparing what to what? pick a single tier one complete fit and lets discuss the difference with numbers between someone that is 100% proficient in all drop suit upgrades to some one with 0% upgrades and base it with tier one limitations, then I think you will see that the percentage based bonuses are less on the lower tier/meta fits so much so that they are of little advantage. literally on hp mods less than a bullet. Hansei Kaizen wrote: Ku Shala wrote: so we re all driving nascars but because im a better driver you dont think we re driving the same car? I dont know nascar ... but it should be extremely obvious that we all do NOT drive the same car. Jeez, have you even understood what SkillPoints do? meaning we all are under the same restrictions you can tune your car but you cant drop a jet engine in it and still qualify to race *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Burst RR should fire like a charge sniper
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 314	Posted - 2014.12.22 20:02:00 - [30] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: look I dont know where your numbers are coming from or why you keep accusing me of mixing up skill points with skill, but you are comparing what to what? pick a single tier one complete fit and lets discuss the difference with numbers between someone that is 100% proficient in all drop suit upgrades to some one with 0% upgrades and base it with tier one limitations, then I think you will see that the percentage based bonuses are less on the lower tier/meta fits so much so that they are of little advantage. literally on hp mods less than a bullet. Hansei Kaizen wrote: Ku Shala wrote: so we re all driving nascars but because im a better driver you dont think we re driving the same car? I dont know nascar ... but it should be extremely obvious that we all do NOT drive the same car. Jeez, have you even understood what SkillPoints do? meaning we all are under the same restrictions you can tune your car but you cant drop a jet engine in it and still qualify to race Well I guess our standpoints are not that different. I just think that even this slight advantage makes a real difference. To keep the racing metaphor: what would a nascar driver give for a car that is just half a mph faster than the next best one? Yet here we are with bonus on top of bonus for higher level players. I ... I just want PVE ... so much GèÖn¦ÅGèÖ The answer to your complaint is PvE. Always. NPE status: (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Casual solo



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