DUST Search - Rattati: ASCR Balance Proposal, MATH + SPREADSHEET

Cavani1EE7 wrote:

Tesfa Alem wrote:

Cavani1EE7 wrote:

Tesfa Alem wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

I like it, but while the change to profile does indeed help it chew through armor, why do we need to it shred shields just as well as it does now? A fully tanked shield suit stands no chance against it, even less so when the new profile + ROF destroys their armor even faster. What if we just changed the profile and left it at that?

The key part of your worries is the "going through armor even faster". It doesn't go through armor fast at all, in fact its glacially slow.

Old Proto ASCR against armor: 386.9

Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (+ 47 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+144.4 vs armor) + 11 m meter range

Proto ASCBR 602.51( +39.9 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+215.9 damage vs armor) with - 4m range

New ASCR against armor : 427.6

Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (-7.1 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+ 103.7 vs armor) + 11 m meter range

Proto ASCBR 426.78 ( - 0.79 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+ 174.91 damage vs armor) - 4m range

In and Armor vs Armor fight the Shield suit weapons still pack a massive more punch than the ASCR. This makes up for the Amarr armor stacking. The only difference is that the shield suit weapons drawbacks wont also outclass the ASCR.

Where the **** do you pick these dumb numbers from?
The current Proto AScR does 500+ DPS (580 at prof.5) againts shields and 330 DPS againts armor.
The ARR does 378 DPS againts shields and 462 (531.3 at prof.5) againts armor.

EDIT: You can clearly see the AScR has a better cumulative DPS over the ARR. And it's yet to get the damage buff.

You ned to put data in context first before you start throwing names around scrub. The ARR has the worst total dps of all the rifles because it has the most range. All of the rifles lose DPS in accordance with range. The gallente rifles put out more damage than the minmatar, who in turn put out more damage than the amarr, who in turn put out more damage than the caldari.

But becuase you asked, Its easy to see how much potential damage a weapon can do per second.

Damage per round x ROF / 60 = base damage per second.

Base damage per second +15% = prof V damage per second

Prof V damage per second + profile bonus % = best case

Prof V damage per second - profile penalty % = worst case

Lest me ask you something genius, why should the Proto ASCR damage bonus reflect of all of the rifles and the penalty on par with the weakest ADV rifles?

Idiot, I'm talking about the numbers.
prof.5 only modifies armor/shield damage based on the damage profile of the weapon.

And my numbers are confirmed at http://protofits.com/


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Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 600	Posted - 2014.12.15 12:18:00 - [1] - Quote In summarry, to balance the ASCR you need to buff ROF by 4% and chang the Profile to +15% -15% Evidence shows the issue is though the ASCR had a damage output only slightly higher than its rivals and a penalty that was worse than every other rifle. The Proto ASCR has a worse penalty than every ADV rifle excet the ADV ASCR, its nearest competitor is the ADV RR which beats the Proto ASCR by 6hp of damage. It doesn't need a straight damage buff, becasue it may render it OP vs Shields. So to make up the massive penalty gap small ROF change and a small 5 % change to the damage profile brings the penalty in line with the other rifles, while at the same time does not boost thedamage bonus. Here is a spreadsheet that compares all of the ADV and PRO Racial Rifles Spreadsheet 1 - Chart 1 lists each rifle Range, ROF, Base damage, Damage per second, Best casedamage, worst case damage and Prof V best and worst case damage. - Chart 2 rates each rifle by worst case damage. Both the ADV and PRO ASCR are the worst rifles in this category. - Chart 3 rates each rifle by best case damage: Proto ASCR is ranked 10th and ADV is ranked 14th. - Chart 4 rates each rifle by range. PRO ASCR is ranked 9th and ADV is ranked 10. Spreadsheet 2 - Chart 1 shows the Proposed changes in stats. - Chart 2 rates all rifle by worst case: ADV ASCR is now 3rd of 20, pro is now 7 of 20 - Chart 3 and 4 rates ADVrifles by worst case/ best case, as well as the the comparative difference in ASCR HP damage output before and after proposed changes: ADV ASCR is now 3rd worst, and 5th best. - Chart 3 and 4 rates PRO rifles by worst case/ best case, as well as the the comparative difference in ASCR HP damage output before and after proposed changes: Pro ASCR is now 3rd worst and 5th best. In the end, this change keeps the ASCR damage output vs all of the rifles nearly identical, where everyone currently feels it is balanced. It improves the damage penalty to where the ADV and PRO ASCR is within less than 1 hp behind the ADV and PRO Combat rifles respectively. Blue tag? What do you think? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 600	Posted - 2014.12.15 15:33:00 - [2] - Quote This is true, but it sure beats trying to repurpose all of the rifles,bother with tweaking with heat, aim, dispersion all of that noise. End of the day, We are only adding to its maximum damage output by 1.9 hP. Best case Scenario, the Carthum assault still does 24hp less damage than the Six kin Combat Rifle. Combat rifle still gets to be king of CQC high DPS fights., while the Carthum Assault Scrambler gets a few more meters range to make up for it, more sustained fire but the risk of overheat. Reducing its penalty by 40.63 hp only makes the Carthum Assault do 0.7 damage vs armor more than the Six Kin Combat Rifle does vs shields. Certainly the dev's won't want to leave the Proto Assault Scrambler weaker vs armor than every other Advanced rifle vs thier damage penalty. By comparion the closest Proto weapon is the Kalaakiota Rail Raile; it does 42.5 more damage vs Shields with an additional 12m of range. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 602	Posted - 2014.12.15 16:22:00 - [3] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: What were the definitions (conditions) of "best and worst case" in your scenario. I defined Best case by maximum damage appplication, Base damage+ Proffieciency+ Damage Profile bonus Assault Scrambler rifle Prof 5 vs Shields (+20%) Assault Rail Rifle Prof 5 Armor(+10%) Assault Rifle Prof 5 vs Shields (+10) Combat Rifle Prof 5 vs Armor (+15) Worst Case by maximum damage that could be applied wih the Damage profile penalty Assault Scrambler Prof 5 vs Armor (-20%) Assault Rail rfile Prof 5 vs Shields (-10%) Assault Rifle Prof 5 vs Armor (-10%) Assault Combat Rifle Prof 5 vs Shields (-15%) Although range is supposed to counteract any loss in damage yet Before the proposed change worst case was ranked 1) ASCR Mid range 2) RR Long range 3) ACBR Mid range 4) AR Short range After My proposed change it would be ranked 1) RR Long range 2) ASCR Mid range 3) ACBR Mid range 4) AR short range Already the best case scenario follows this line of balance, and now the worst case scenario would be the same. More damage hp the closer you get. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 602	Posted - 2014.12.15 17:04:00 - [4] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Really like the approach! A concern here is that it'd be tough to remember (not to mention, explain to future generations) which weapon(s) vary from their parent damage profiles. Then there's precedent to consider. Is there no other way to achieve comparable results? I don't know if there is a better way to increase the damage penalty to be on par on the other rifles without buffing the damage bonus far out of proportion. To make up for the 40 dmg hp penalty a straight buff would add 40 dmg hp to the bonus Carthum Assult Scrambler would not go from 578.4 (current) to 580 dmg (proposed) but to 619 dmg The Six Kin Combat Rifle does 602 dmg. Then we would have a weapon with longer rage out DPS a shorter range weapon by 17hp. Switching the penalty to +15 -15% just nerfed the bonus and buffed the penalty at the same time, then i tweaked the ROF percentage to get the bonus stats where they used to be and it turned out the penalty fell neatly in line. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 616	Posted - 2014.12.16 05:45:00 - [5] - Quote Bumping for Dev attention Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 619	Posted - 2014.12.16 07:24:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I like it, but while the change to profile does indeed help it chew through armor, why do we need to it shred shields just as well as it does now? A fully tanked shield suit stands no chance against it, even less so when the new profile + ROF destroys their armor even faster. What if we just changed the profile and left it at that? The key part of your worries is the "going through armor even faster". It doesn't go through armor fast at all, in fact its glacially slow. Old Proto ASCR against armor: 386.9 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (+ 47 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+144.4 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 602.51( +39.9 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+215.9 damage vs armor) with - 4m range New ASCR against armor : 427.6 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (-7.1 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+ 103.7 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 426.78 ( - 0.79 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+ 174.91 damage vs armor) - 4m range In and Armor vs Armor fight the Shield suit weapons still pack a massive more punch than the ASCR. This makes up for the Amarr armor stacking. The only difference is that the shield suit weapons drawbacks wont also outclass the ASCR. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 624	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:31:00 - [7] - Quote bump for blue tag Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 630	Posted - 2014.12.17 07:05:00 - [8] - Quote daily bump allotment Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 630	Posted - 2014.12.17 13:21:00 - [9] - Quote Zindorak wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You'd probably have to change it only for the AScR. A "regular" ScR, and particularly an LR with a better damage profile would seriously f*ck people up. Not that I have a problem with that... Yea lol Amarr has the most powerful weapons but they come with drawbacks such as Damage Profile and Heat But the irony is the ASCR does not reflect this. In terms of the most damage each rifle can put out per second the Proto ASCR does 580.4 maximum possible damage - the Six Kin Combat rifle does 602.5 is ahead by 22.1 hp - The Creodorn Breach AR does 577.7 is behind 2.7 hp - The Duvolle does 573.3 is behind by 7.1 hp Basically it does only comparatively average, and still keeps all of the drawbacks. Wich is fine, but the only drawback that needs a severe reduction is its penalty. Its penalty i repeat, is worse than every single ADV rifle in dust. A proto assault scrambler rifle shooting armor would do less damage than an ADV Rail rifle shooting shields, let alone a proto rail rifle shooting shields. This is not balanced. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 630	Posted - 2014.12.17 14:35:00 - [10] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I like it, but while the change to profile does indeed help it chew through armor, why do we need to it shred shields just as well as it does now? A fully tanked shield suit stands no chance against it, even less so when the new profile + ROF destroys their armor even faster. What if we just changed the profile and left it at that? The key part of your worries is the "going through armor even faster". It doesn't go through armor fast at all, in fact its glacially slow. Old Proto ASCR against armor: 386.9 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (+ 47 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+144.4 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 602.51( +39.9 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+215.9 damage vs armor) with - 4m range New ASCR against armor : 427.6 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (-7.1 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+ 103.7 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 426.78 ( - 0.79 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+ 174.91 damage vs armor) - 4m range In and Armor vs Armor fight the Shield suit weapons still pack a massive more punch than the ASCR. This makes up for the Amarr armor stacking. The only difference is that the shield suit weapons drawbacks wont also outclass the ASCR. Where the ** do you pick these dumb numbers from? The current** Proto AScR does 500+ DPS (580 at prof.5) againts shields and 330 DPS againts armor. The ARR does 378 DPS againts shields and 462 (531.3 at prof.5) againts armor. EDIT: You can clearly see the AScR has a better cumulative DPS over the ARR. And it's yet to get the damage buff. You ned to put data in context first before you start throwing names around scrub. The ARR has the worst total dps of all the rifles because it has the most range. All of the rifles lose DPS in accordance with range. The gallente rifles put out more damage than the minmatar, who in turn put out more damage than the amarr, who in turn put out more damage than the caldari. But becuase you asked, Its easy to see how much potential damage a weapon can do per second. Damage per round x ROF / 60 = base damage per second. Base damage per second +15% = prof V damage per second Prof V damage per second + profile bonus % = best case Prof V damage per second - profile penalty % = worst case Lest me ask you something genius, why should the Proto ASCR damage bonus reflect of all of the rifles and the penalty on par with the weakest ADV rifles? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 630	Posted - 2014.12.17 16:17:00 - [11] - Quote I saw it, and no, its still not fixed. Damage output got tweaked yes, but now the Proto ASCR got upgraded from worse than the ADV rifles to the same as the worst ADV rifle so theres that. But the GB13 holy crap is that gun OP now. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 633	Posted - 2014.12.18 00:23:00 - [12] - Quote Cavani1EE7 wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Cavani1EE7 wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I like it, but while the change to profile does indeed help it chew through armor, why do we need to it shred shields just as well as it does now? A fully tanked shield suit stands no chance against it, even less so when the new profile + ROF destroys their armor even faster. What if we just changed the profile and left it at that? The key part of your worries is the "going through armor even faster". It doesn't go through armor fast at all, in fact its glacially slow. Old Proto ASCR against armor: 386.9 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (+ 47 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+144.4 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 602.51( +39.9 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+215.9 damage vs armor) with - 4m range New ASCR against armor : 427.6 Proto Assault Rail rifle 434.70 (-7.1 damage vs shields) and 531.30 (+ 103.7 vs armor) + 11 m meter range Proto ASCBR 426.78 ( - 0.79 damage vs shields) and 602.51 (+ 174.91 damage vs armor) - 4m range In and Armor vs Armor fight the Shield suit weapons still pack a massive more punch than the ASCR. This makes up for the Amarr armor stacking. The only difference is that the shield suit weapons drawbacks wont also outclass the ASCR. Where the ** do you pick these dumb numbers from? The current** Proto AScR does 500+ DPS (580 at prof.5) againts shields and 330 DPS againts armor. The ARR does 378 DPS againts shields and 462 (531.3 at prof.5) againts armor. EDIT: You can clearly see the AScR has a better cumulative DPS over the ARR. And it's yet to get the damage buff. You ned to put data in context first before you start throwing names around scrub. The ARR has the worst total dps of all the rifles because it has the most range. All of the rifles lose DPS in accordance with range. The gallente rifles put out more damage than the minmatar, who in turn put out more damage than the amarr, who in turn put out more damage than the caldari. But becuase you asked, Its easy to see how much potential damage a weapon can do per second. Damage per round x ROF / 60 = base damage per second. Base damage per second +15% = prof V damage per second Prof V damage per second + profile bonus % = best case Prof V damage per second - profile penalty % = worst case Lest me ask you something genius, why should the Proto ASCR damage bonus reflect of all of the rifles and the penalty on par with the weakest ADV rifles? Idiot, I'm talking about the numbers. prof.5 only modifies armor/shield damage based on the damage profile of the weapon. And my numbers are confirmed at http://protofits.com/ same place i got mine fool, obvioulsy you didn't even look at the spredsheet before talking trash, you would hve seen the numbers are identical to proto fits beofre todays update. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.