DUST Search - A question for Rattatai on Weapon Data Mining.

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:

And honestly, I'd like to add why wouldn't the data be skewed? We have two races that are designed now to be pure armor tankers.

In my opinion, Amarr should be the opposite of minmitar just as the gallente and Caldari are polar opposities and here's what I mean.

Minmitar have better shields then all but the Caldari and have good dual tanking capability combined with an over all higher speed and good regen/rep.

Amarr should in turn have better armor then all but the Gallente with even greater dual tanking capability making their shields slightly greater than the Minmitar in exchange for their slower speed and poorer regen/rep. Basically Amarr would be the dual brick tanks that trade said capabilities for very poor shield regeneration and armor repair along with speed reduction which are all points already in existence within the suit. Essentially what I'm asking for is that they have the same High/low slot progression as the Minmitar ending with 4/4 at proto level on assaults and when uneven one less high than their lows like the opposite of Minmitar. I also would ask that their shields are increased significantly to make them slightly superior to Minmitar shield stats while lowering their armor value to be slightly less than gallente suits.

The fact that we currently have two armor tank races should obviously make ScR and AR inferior in most situations. The fact that they keep buffing shield profiled weapons to perform just as well as armor profiled weapons in an environment where 3/4ths of the races will be armor tanked with likely minimal shields just further exacerbates the situation.

Edit: Heavies should also be more profound in their difference. Currently their shield and armor values are dual tanked which makes armor tanking also better as Gallente have very good shield values (I mean the Gallente militia heavy is practically superior to the amarr heavy in every way but stamina.) The fact that shields scale slower makes Caldari heavies rather pointless when they only have 200-300 more shields than their counterparts who at times will have double their armor value or more.

No.
You obvoiulsy don't understand how each race works of you think the "mirror approach" is a good idea.

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 669	Posted - 2014.12.08 14:57:00 - [1] - Quote When considering how well a weapon is performing are any other variables considered other than how many kills are received with said weapon? I ask because is it also being cross referenced with what suits are killed by said weapons? Because overall meta wise the ScR and AR should be underperforming statistically to the RR and ARR because of the higher use of armor tanking over shield tanking. The reality is that if this is not also being calculated then the issue will only be further exacerbated for shield tanking. I for one who has shield tanked and armor tanked in the past know for instance that one ScR on the field pretty much shuts down all Caldari suits that are proper shield tanked. I also know that from what I've been told the ScR hasn't been changed much because it performs on par with other rifles. Something with a -20 profile to armor the most popular tanking set up should not be performing on par with other rifles. For god's sake's statistically the AScR doesn't even make sense to use at this current iteration due to the dps capabilities of the ScR... why is this a thing? And could Rattatai shed a little bit of a light onto what is taken into consideration when looking at weapon balance and dropsuit balance?
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2487	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:00:00 - [2] - Quote Interesting question, and to the best of my knowledge none of that was used -- at least I'm fairly certain none of that was shared. FWIW, I asked a similar question when the data was shared with us the first time -- around balancing the RR. Specifically, I asked if distance data was evaluated. I do not believe I received an answer. Perhaps someone more involved in the discussion (CPM?) can help in this regard, or perhaps CCP Ratatti will respond.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 669	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:54:00 - [3] - Quote And honestly, I'd like to add why wouldn't the data be skewed? We have two races that are designed now to be pure armor tankers. In my opinion, Amarr should be the opposite of minmitar just as the gallente and Caldari are polar opposities and here's what I mean. Minmitar have better shields then all but the Caldari and have good dual tanking capability combined with an over all higher speed and good regen/rep. Amarr should in turn have better armor then all but the Gallente with even greater dual tanking capability making their shields on par with the Minmitar in exchange for their slower speed and poorer regen/rep. The fact that we currently have two armor tank races should obviously make ScR and AR inferior in most situations. The fact that they keep buffing shield profiled weapons to perform just as well as armor profiled weapons in an environment where 3/4ths of the races will be armor tanked with likely minimal shields just further exacerbates the situation.
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1321	Posted - 2014.12.08 23:54:00 - [4] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: And honestly, I'd like to add why wouldn't the data be skewed? We have two races that are designed now to be pure armor tankers. In my opinion, Amarr should be the opposite of minmitar just as the gallente and Caldari are polar opposities and here's what I mean. Minmitar have better shields then all but the Caldari and have good dual tanking capability combined with an over all higher speed and good regen/rep. Amarr should in turn have better armor then all but the Gallente with even greater dual tanking capability making their shields slightly greater than the Minmitar in exchange for their slower speed and poorer regen/rep. Basically Amarr would be the dual brick tanks that trade said capabilities for very poor shield regeneration and armor repair along with speed reduction which are all points already in existence within the suit. Essentially what I'm asking for is that they have the same High/low slot progression as the Minmitar ending with 4/4 at proto level on assaults and when uneven one less high than their lows like the opposite of Minmitar. I also would ask that their shields are increased significantly to make them slightly superior to Minmitar shield stats while lowering their armor value to be slightly less than gallente suits. The fact that we currently have two armor tank races should obviously make ScR and AR inferior in most situations. The fact that they keep buffing shield profiled weapons to perform just as well as armor profiled weapons in an environment where 3/4ths of the races will be armor tanked with likely minimal shields just further exacerbates the situation. Edit: Heavies should also be more profound in their difference. Currently their shield and armor values are dual tanked which makes armor tanking also better as Gallente have very good shield values (I mean the Gallente militia heavy is practically superior to the amarr heavy in every way but stamina.) The fact that shields scale slower makes Caldari heavies rather pointless when they only have 200-300 more shields than their counterparts who at times will have double their armor value or more. No. You obvoiulsy don't understand how each race works of you think the "mirror approach" is a good idea. Please, make my Opus pretty...
KING CHECKMATE Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 6175	Posted - 2014.12.09 00:45:00 - [5] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: why don't we remove damage profiles from the game which skew performance statistics? Personally i'd love to keep them, but if they aren't even considered then it only damages the likelihood of the game ever being balanced. In my opinion, i think they are just WAY too big. Good idea, must stay...but... IF i was CCP this would be the damage profiles: Laser: +15% vs Shields -10% vs armor (overheats) Blaster: +7% vs shield - 5% to armor (Less Range) Projectile: -5% vs shield +7% To armor (More spread) Explosives: -10% Vs Shields +10% Vs armor Rail Tech: -7% vs Shields + 7% vs Armor (with a slight buff to hip fire) Proficiency: +2% Damage to ''x'' type per level (for a total of +10% at Prof 5) Damage mods reduced by 2% per level (at cx level: Heavy +3% , Light +5% and Side +6%) This way, ALL weapons would preform a lot better. Lots of weapons would be more useful and probably diversity of use would also increase. Just a random idea, no need to bash me too strong.... Amarr FW blue dots suck. If you suck :please go and bother Minmatar or Gallente. You'll even win some matches there.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 671	Posted - 2014.12.09 21:30:00 - [6] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: And honestly, I'd like to add why wouldn't the data be skewed? We have two races that are designed now to be pure armor tankers. In my opinion, Amarr should be the opposite of minmitar just as the gallente and Caldari are polar opposities and here's what I mean. Minmitar have better shields then all but the Caldari and have good dual tanking capability combined with an over all higher speed and good regen/rep. Amarr should in turn have better armor then all but the Gallente with even greater dual tanking capability making their shields slightly greater than the Minmitar in exchange for their slower speed and poorer regen/rep. Basically Amarr would be the dual brick tanks that trade said capabilities for very poor shield regeneration and armor repair along with speed reduction which are all points already in existence within the suit. Essentially what I'm asking for is that they have the same High/low slot progression as the Minmitar ending with 4/4 at proto level on assaults and when uneven one less high than their lows like the opposite of Minmitar. I also would ask that their shields are increased significantly to make them slightly superior to Minmitar shield stats while lowering their armor value to be slightly less than gallente suits. The fact that we currently have two armor tank races should obviously make ScR and AR inferior in most situations. The fact that they keep buffing shield profiled weapons to perform just as well as armor profiled weapons in an environment where 3/4ths of the races will be armor tanked with likely minimal shields just further exacerbates the situation. Edit: Heavies should also be more profound in their difference. Currently their shield and armor values are dual tanked which makes armor tanking also better as Gallente have very good shield values (I mean the Gallente militia heavy is practically superior to the amarr heavy in every way but stamina.) The fact that shields scale slower makes Caldari heavies rather pointless when they only have 200-300 more shields than their counterparts who at times will have double their armor value or more. No. You obvoiulsy don't understand how each race works of you think the "mirror approach" is a good idea. I understand perfectly how they work but you clearly don't understand that Eve =/= Dust. Until the Devs stop trying to shoehorn the concept that they can copy their designs directly and still have diversity we will continue to have nonsensical overlaps. Currently Amarr and Gallente are nearly the same by design with only minor differences. Not nearly as profound in difference as the Caldari and Minmitar for example. The reality is that Gallente Can't be superior armor repairers as any significant bonus would make them absurdly overpowered. All they have left then to make them unique is to be the primary armor tanks. Amarr on the other hand would easily fit in as the brick tanked dual tanks like they once were however "Teh Lorez!" is what player's always defend the nonsensical overlap with. In reality, I don't believe a damn one of you that are "Hardcore Amarr" would disagree with what I have suggested if shields weren't so useless to begin with. The only reason Amarr bitched to be the best armor tanks was because shields were so bad in comparison to armor. No one complained about Amarr in the old builds UNTIL shields got nerfed hard and armor buffed.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 671	Posted - 2014.12.09 21:37:00 - [7] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: why don't we remove damage profiles from the game which skew performance statistics? Personally i'd love to keep them, but if they aren't even considered then it only damages the likelihood of the game ever being balanced. In my opinion, i think they are just WAY too big. Good idea, must stay...but... IF i was CCP this would be the damage profiles: Laser: +15% vs Shields -10% vs armor (overheats) Blaster: +7% vs shield - 5% to armor (Less Range) Projectile: -5% vs shield +7% To armor (More spread) Explosives: -10% Vs Shields +10% Vs armor Rail Tech: -7% vs Shields + 7% vs Armor (with a slight buff to hip fire) Proficiency: +2% Damage to ''x'' type per level (for a total of +10% at Prof 5) Damage mods reduced by 2% per level (at cx level: Heavy +3% , Light +5% and Side +6%) This way, ALL weapons would preform a lot better. Lots of weapons would be more useful and probably diversity of use would also increase. Just a random idea, no need to bash me too strong.... Yeah they really should be less profound if shield specced weapons are going to keep getting buffed driving off any reason to play Caldari. Hell, if people thought for themselves more even Caldari scouts would be less popular if players toted burst ARs as burst weapons are great for hitting scouts, however using one weapon to combat one type of suit is pretty much nonsense anyways. Hence why such weapons underperform in comparison to say the Combat rifle. That is of course until CCP continues to buff shield profiled weapons and nerf armor profiled weapons, because they interpret data from a broad perspective. At least, I'll continue to assume they do unless CCP actually clarifies how they determine a weapon is underperforming/overperforming. Because, as I've explained already in this thread, simply counting how many kills are made with what makes little sense if nothing else is considered.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page