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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
172
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Posted - 2014.11.28 21:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I saw another thread on this, and I noticed that it didn't seem to account for some of the more recent balance changes of certain suits role bonuses.
Before I continue, be warned that this is only about the role bonus of the different dropsuit classes- I'm not going to be touching on the racial bonuses with even an 11.5 foot pole. Also, be warned that this will very likely be very long.
With that out of the way, let's look at the role bonuses of each suit class; unless otherwise noted all bonuses are given as "per level".
Assault:
-5% CPU/PG usage of light weapons
-5% CPU/PG usage of sidearm weapons
-5% CPU/PG usage of grenades
Logistics
-5% CPU/PG usage of equipment
Scout
-15% CPU/PG usage of Cloak Fields
Sentinel
-5% CPU/PG usage of heavy weapons
-5% splash damage taken
Commando
-5% reload speed of light/sidearm weapons
So, obviously there's some pretty blatant disparity- Assault suits get three bonuses, Sentinels have two, and the other three all have only one apiece. Not only that, but some of these bonuses are only actually useful at very high SP investment (looking at you cloak field bonus).
But just because a suit gets more role bonuses doesn't make it automatically better; in fact, in the case of the Assault bonuses, the light/sidearm fitting bonus is similar enough that I would say we could consider it effectively the same bonus.
There's also the issue that the Commando class- which has arguably the worst fitting resources of any suit- has no fitting bonus. Granted, it also has fewer slots to fill, but particularly for the Commando, the CPU/PG can very easily be drained by fitting particularly resource-intensive weapons. With that said, I don't think that the Commando should have a fitting bonus, because it ends up infringing on the currently assigned assault bonuses.
Where the issue, IMO, really lies is that a good number of these bonuses are either useless for new players who have only a small SP investment into a suit (cloak bonus), or do not actually provide much utility to the intended role (assaults/commandos).
So, first, I'll give what I think should be changed about some of these bonuses, and then explain my reasoning; for some roles, I'll need to actually give a pretty in-depth analysis of why it should be a particular way, while others will not need much. Let's dive in, shall we?
Scout
(flat bonus) -30% CPU/PG usage of Cloak Fields
(per-level bonus) -9% CPU/PG usage of Cloak Fields
The main goal of this alteration is simply to afford new players the opportunity to put together useful fits with low-end modules and suits that aren't completely gimped by the addition of a Cloak. As far as adding additional, role-oriented bonuses... I'm unsure of what to do, so I would probably say that this is the only change that should be made.
Though, off the top of my head, the only one I can think of would perhaps be a small (2%/level) bonus to cloak duration OR recharge- but absolutely not both.
Sentinel
-5% CPU/PG usage of heavy weapons
-5% splash damage taken
(both bonuses are per level)
I'm sure that there are some who'll disagree with leaving the Sentinel bonus alone, but honestly I think that these two bonuses complement the role (tanky heavy weapons carrier) very nicely; the heavy weapon fitting bonus helps to encourage the use of heavy weapons on the suit, which nicely averts the supposed scourge of "RR heavies".
Of course, it would be easier to avert such silliness by simply introducing more heavy weapons, but we've been stuck with two since sometime in the Closed Beta, so I doubt that that will happen. Oh well.
Assault
(per level) -5% CPU/PG of usage light/sidearm weapon
(per level) -5% CPU/PG of usage of grenades
(flat bonus) +1 Grenade Carried
So, here the light/sidearm fitting bonus is simply listed together for brevity's sake, while the new bonus is that Assaults can carry an additional grenade (for a total of three (3) instead of two (2)). Grenades are pretty important when you want to, you know, assault stuff, so having Assault suits carry an additional grenade will confer some short-term firepower when trying to breach a well-defended chokepoint or stronghold.
Alternately, Assault suits could be given a second grenade slot as their "role bonus", allowing greater flexibility; this would, however, require some UI changes and alterations to the control mapping in how grenades are handled, and there would probably have to be a limitation on only being able to fit the two grenade slots with two different type-classifications of grenades; IE, you couldn't carry two sets of Locus grenades, you'd have to carry either Locus+Flux, Flux+AV, or Locus+AV.
Other than that, I'm not sure what can be done to help assault suits be more assault-y of things, without delving into deeper balance and game design issues- something I'm not interested in doing here.
Commando
(per level) -5% reload speed of light/sidearm weapons
(per level) +20% maximum ammo capacity of light weapons
[OPTIONAL] (flat bonus) -10% CPU/PG usage of light weapons
I don't think anyone can deny that Commandos are pretty bad right now; it isn't quite that Commandos are flat-out "bad", so much as they are bad by comparison with almost everything else, except for certain very specialized tasks are fits. IMO, part of this is due to the somewhat lackluster (at least by comparison) skill bonuses.
Another part, however, is that the skill bonuses do not really emphasize the "suppression fighter" nature of the Commando. Now, the ammo bonus has been something bandied about- it's also been something that's usually extended to ammo capacity of a weapon.
I am unsure that that is either necessary for the Commando as a class/role, or if it is a desirable bonus.
[Continued Next Post]
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
172
|
Posted - 2014.11.28 21:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
[Continued From Above]
To continue the line of thought that the Commando should perhaps not have a magazine capacity bonus, let's look at some of the ripple effects; most often the suggested value is a +20% clip capacity per level for light weapons, which means at L5 racial Commando, a light weapon's magazine capacity is literally doubled. Here's a few samples of what that looks like:
AR: 60->120 rounds
BrAR: 36->72 rounds
TacAR: 18->36 rounds
PLC: 1->2 rounds
MD: 6->12 rounds
Assault MD: 8->16 rounds
ACR: 68->136 rounds
ARR: 58->116 rounds
RR: 42->84 rounds
Swarms: 3->6 rounds
Shotguns: 8->16 rounds
For those who are undoubtedly curious as to why I did not include the Scrambler/Assault Scrambler Rifles, the Laser Rifle, or the Sniper Rifles- as well as some other weapon variants, it's because said weapons either non-capacity related limitations to sustained fire (heat buildup, as is the case with the Scrambler/Laser families) or are simply not very good weapons anyways (Breach MD, Breach shotgun).
But as we can see, this clip capacity bonus makes a wide range of weapons exceptional at not only suppressing the enemy, but also at just plain murderizing everything in sight. Now, I will admit, I am unsure as to whether such a bonus is OP for certain weapons and not for others; as an example, I don't personally think a Plasma Cannon that can fire two shots is OP by default... but I think that the ability to double Swarm Launcher capacity would incredibly broken.
We also run into the issue that, in the case of the Minmatar Commando comparing to the Minmatar Assault, the Commando nearly obsoletes the Assault suit; not only does the Commando have a moderate HP advantage, but it also gains an additional light weapon, a built-in damage bonus, and a better capacity bonus. At the same time, the opposite is true of the Amarr Commando- a clip capacity bonus is useless on it because the intended weapons of choice (Scrambler Rifles, and to a much lesser degree LRs) are limited in sustained fire by heat buildup rather than clip capacity.
Now, with that said, I do think that having a clip capacity bonus attached as a racial bonus for only some Commando suits could be an interesting possibility. However, that is not relevant to this discussion, which is on the disparity of the role bonuses between classes.
So you obviously are asking "how does increased maximum ammo carried buff suppression fire"; well, it's relatively simple. By increasing the amount of ammo carried, a Commando user is more-or-less encouraged to pretty much take a shot even if ti's unlikely to actually hit; this also improves the Commando's role as a more defensive AV platform that has greater ability to move with a squad of medframes, mostly due to the flexibility of carrying two light weapons.
This is particularly relevant for using the PLC and MD- buffing the amount of ammo reserve for these weapons when deployed on the Commando suit is greatly increasing the ability of the Commando user to provide infantry/squad level bombardment support. It also allows a Commando user to diversify their equipment selection to more than "nanohives", allowing the Commando to provide a moderate degree of team support through equipment usage.
As an addendum, the potential addition of a fixed bonus to weapon fittings is to emphasize the light weapon-focus of the Commando, while also not infringing on the Assault's much better fitting bonus.
So, now we (finally) come to the Logi... which is also where the controversy is really going to start.
Logistics
(flat bonus) -20% CPU/PG usage of equipment
(per level) -6% CPU/PG usage of equipment
(per level) +1 Deployable Equipment Carried
(per level) +4 MHz Equipment Bandwidth
So, straight up, doing the math, it will be instantly obvious that the Logi fitting bonus has been increased to a total of -50%, instead of the current maximum of -25%. This is to provide greater ability for a Logi to "up-fit" equipment (IE, fit higher-end equipment), particularly since Standard-level equipment is plain terrible for providing effective team support. It will also be noticed that the Logi fitting bonus has been split- much like the Scout bonus- to provide an initial, fixed bonus, in addition to the per-level bonus of the suit skill.
The main reason for this is to not leave newbros out in the cold with their fittings, which is what is happening with the current Scout bonus and would, IMO, similarly occur with the CPM Logistics Proposal to buff the Logi fitting bonus to 50% instead of 25%.
As to the Deployable mention, this is to decrease the amount of depot-hopping/depot-trips a Logi will have to make. Considering that deployables are an expended item- once you set it, you can't pick it up again- it is better for a Logi to be able to carry a larger amount of deployables, as the Logi role is built around using equipment. This in turn means that Logis will be deploying equipment more often than, say, Assaults, Commandos, or Scouts, while also gaining a larger reserve of deployables so that they are not constantly going back and forth to a supply depot to refill their deployable equipment stores.
The notation on Equipment Bandwidth is in reference to CCP Rattati's Bandwidth Proposal; a major issue with said proposal that I see is that their is a tiering of Bandwidth Capacity on suits, and the Logi suits are the ones hit hardest by that tiering. Instead of tiering the suit values, if tiering of Equipment Bandwidth Capacity (on suits, that is) must be introduced, then it should be part of the Logi suit skill bonus, further incentivizing investment into the skill.
With that said, the numbers offered for the Deployables Carried and Equipment Bandwidth- and by extension the other suit bonuses- are merely placeholders/suggestions.
Comment away, my fellow DUST'ers.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Piercing Serenity
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
754
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Posted - 2014.11.29 01:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nice post, good read.
I'll sit on it for a while before responding
Closed Beta Vet (E3 Build), Former PFBHz
Best Corps Battled (Personally): Imperfects, TeamPlayers, Hellstorm
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
1283
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Posted - 2014.11.29 04:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
the only bonus worth anything is the scout bonus.
all the other bonuses cancel each other out.
similar pg and cpu.
logi gets a bonus to equipment.
assault gets bonuses to all weapons. ( which is incorrect it should be only racial weapons, meaning lasers for amarr, projectile weapons for minmatar and hybrids for gallente and caldari. where theyre bonus applies to rails and blasters alike, its the same category of weapons.)
both suit can fit the exact same stuff. and neither is hindered in anyway but deviating from the role.
a role bonus is supposed to be something very robust to somethin very specific that no other role can do.
i can fit a proto weapon on any suit regardless of what else i put on it.
its a completely worthless bonus to be honest.
for assaults it needs to be like a bonus for damage mods, or kin cats since kincats are the microwarpdrives of dust. and in eve the assault cruisers use microwarpdrives.
assault suits are the heavy assault cruisers of dust and need to be treated as such.
right now all the suits are incredibly generic.
5%-25% fitting is nothing.
splash damage on sentinels is cool. but it needs to be expanded upon. they need a fps version of a bastion mode.
like being a deployable turret but they cant move or defend themselves from behind. and i dont mean a large turret with 10k health. i mean a small turret type deal like killzone has with the engineers.
they lock areas down. they also have smoke grenades to call in a drone. which we could use.
and reload on commandos could be better. faster reload and more ammo. since theyre they battlecruisers of dust.
they carry multiple 'cruiser' sized weapons and can lay down more fire.
the same relationship a destroyer and frigate have. commando should be a medium killer.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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