Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
167
   |
Posted - 2014.11.28 04:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Catgirl White Mage wrote:Its our role bonus.
Every other suit in the game has a consistent number of EQ slots from Basic to Pro.
We should be the same.
All Tiers should also have the same Equipment Bandwidth.
Not everything in this game needs to be tiered. Especially when Logistics already has the same tiering of every other dropsuit -on top- of EQ slots and potentially EQ Bandwidth. Our growth curve should not be more severe.
I agree that BW tiering should die in a fire. It's stupid, and dumb. If something like it must be integrated, then attach it to the logi skill.
In fact, just off the top of my head:
Logi suit base BW (for all tiers): 12 MHz
Logi suit skill bonus: +4 BW per level
L5+base: 32 MHz of BW
Assuming that they other suits are tiericided to their PRO levels, this puts the L1 Logi skill at 16 MHz bandwidth.
"But that's the same as an assault/commando suit!" you say?
Well, at L1 Logi, yeah. But remember that you also have multiple equipment slots, so you'll be able to make more efficient use of your BW from the start anyways, and more than that, investing into the skill gives additional bonus to your suit BW, maxing out at the 32 MHz BW cap proposed for the proto logi suits.
This being said, I somewhat disagree; the Gal/Min logis should have a 3/4/4 equipment progression- they are rather defined by carrying lots of equipment, so I say let them have lots of equipment early on. The Amarr, given that it has a sidearm, should instead be 3/3/3 equipment- the main reason to give it 3 at STD is so that it gains a slight advantage over scout suits (currently the STD Amarr/Gallente Scouts have a better slot layout, and the same weapon/equip layout, as the STD AmLogi).
For the Caldari, we can take two routes: we can make it the shieldbrick/shield triage version of the MinLogi, though this requires the addition of a remote shield rep tool. Or, we can make it the shieldbrick version of the AmLogi, by giving it a 3/3/3 equip layout, and a sidearm.
I think both ideas have there merit; currently the CalLogi is bonused for deployables, which incentives a more "active-combatant" role, while the handheld equip bonusing of the Gal/Min suits incentives a more "have the tool out as much (or even more than) your gun". With the AmLogi and CalLogi being deployable-oriented, there's more incentive to busy yourself with shooting other players in the face. Emphasizing this aspect by making the CalLogi the shield version of its Amarrian counterpart is an interesting paradigm, and also adds a nice bit of diversity to the logi lines.
In contrast, going with the CalLogi=MAXIMUM SHIELD TRIAGE route, by bonusing it for shield transfer tools as well as nanohives, we end up with something that has greater incentive to have an equipment tool in-hand just as much as weapon.
So it could go either way- it depends on if we ever get a dedicated shield repair tool, and what direction ends up being chosen by the devs.
Luk Manag wrote:All logi suits should get the Minmatar bonus for the rep tool as well.
Min logi could get an extra RE or Cloak fitting bonus or something freedom-fighter-terroristesque.
Luk Manag wrote:I think running around with the rep tool out should be the defining characteristic of a logi. A shield rep tool is a great idea for Cal/Min, with no bonus for the armor rep tool.
Can this attitude that "logis should be repping stuff" please die in a fire? Seriously, can it? I don't have any SP investment into rep tools. Part of this is because I find rep-leashing to be insufferably boring. The other part is because of the attitude expressed in these two quoted posts.
The attitude that logis are the equivalent of a walking, talking repair tool. That logistics players exist solely to repair other people. That a logi should not be shooting other players in the face.
Some people- like me- find that playstyle insufferably boring. So instead, as a logi, I provide links, nanos, and scans. Sometimes I'll swap one of those items out for a needle. Mostly I do so if I decide to pull out my logi rigs in and am running with a squad, or on the blue moon I decide to jump into a spambush match.
But I don't carry reps. If you get repped by me, it's because I set up a rep/resupply hive. But it definitely won't come from a repair tool.
There is also the slight detail that, when using an Amarr Logi suit, which has two guns, there is in my opinion a disincentive to carry a repair tool- if I have two guns, then I would prefer to take advantage of that by providing greater fire support flexibility (like LRs, swarms, and PLCs) than by repping other people.
Because reps become irrelevant when every reddot is dead.
Twelve Guage wrote:Give all logi suits a side arms as well.
I did talk with a guy on comms one day that expressed that opinion- his angle was that logi suits will always be worse than an assault suit for actual frontline combat, so it wouldn't break anything for logis to have a sidearm.
This being said, I would like to express that, IMO, a logi suit should either have a sidearm+3 equipment, or no sidearm+4 equipment.
This is primarily because I am unsure of the wisdom of 4 equips+1 sidearm; about the only reason I could get behind that would be if it became a case of "0 sidearm+5 equip" OR "1 sidearm+4 equip". But the former would require some degree of UI work, that would in turn require a client side patch.
A guy can dream though, can't he?
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
|
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
171
|
Posted - 2014.11.28 07:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Catgirl White Mage wrote:Amarr could be the odd one out, but I really feel that we should all have 4 EQ regardless. They already sacrifice a low slot.
I'm almost fine with the slot loss on the Amarr Logi at PRO. If I had my way, then I'd adjust the Amarr Logi like so:
Logistics A-I (STD): 0 Hi/3 Low, 3 Equip, L/S/G
Logistics A/1-Series (ADV): 1 Hi/4 Low, 3 Equip, L/S/G
Logistics ak.0 (PRO): 2 Hi/5 low, 3 Equip, L/S/G
With L=Light Weapon, S=Sidearm, and G=Grenade. The main issue, IMO, with the Amarr Logi slot layout is that it doesn't actually make any sense considering the (correct) armor-brick bias of Amarr suits. Back when Amarr were (stupidly) intended to be dual-tank brickfits, it made some sense.
But now? Yeah, not so much. This also means that the suit can be made a bit more survivable, IMO- I never really wonder what to throw into my highs when using... well, any Amarr suit for that matter. It's always either damage mods, or in the case of my Logi rigs, shield extenders- otherwise I simply feel too fragile. If I could get my armor HP up higher (mostly by having more lows), then I would be more interested in damage mods (to complement the more active-combatant aspect of the AmLogi), or even precision mods- though that assumes an EWAR revamp.
My lows though? Almost always armor, but it's hard to really brick out an AmLogi suit without sucking down most of your PG budget (which is chronically short), leaving very little for weapons or high-end equipment.
Also, please buff AmLogi PG, and slightly nerf its CPU to compensate; as it stands, the suit is ridiculously difficult to fit with the Amarrian preferential laser weapons, which are notoriously PG-intensive.
Catgirl White Mage wrote:I am not honestly sure how to assess the true value of the Sidearm slot. It does not make them deal more damage, Logi generally don't have to worry about running out of ammo either. No Sidearm truly replaces a Light Weapon, though some perhaps come close.
What it would do is open up weapon choices that are not suitable for primary, general use, like Mass Drivers, Plasma Cannons and Swarm Launchers. All of those still fit in with the Logistics and support role.
This is really what it comes down to with the AmLogi- because it has a sidearm, it is, IMO, encouraged towards a offensive-support oriented fitting, using weapons like PLCs, MDs, and Swarms. It's also true of using Laser Rifles on a Logi suit- it's tantamount to suicide on the other Logi suits due to the minimum range restriction, but it can work very well on the Amarr Logi.
But not reps- there's several threads that I've enumerated on why I refuse to carry rep tools as a Logi.
Catgirl White Mage wrote:I would not be opposed to us all gaining a Sidearm.
I think ultimately this would be core game design decision made by CCP Rattati, as he seems to be spearheading anything related to DUST. Whether or not he makes this decision... who knows.
Catgirl White Mage wrote:Regardless, we are Logistics, we should all get 4 EQ all the time with the EQ Bandwidth to support it. We should be able to do our full role from the start, just like all the other suits.
When I run around in full Militia Heavy Suit gear, I feel like a heavy, I can do all the things I'm supposed to do as a Heavy. I might not be quite as effective but its there.
We already have the same low effectiveness at low skill from the basic quality of our equipment. We don't need additional weaknesses.
Oh I absolutely agree on the BW side. That being said, I'm not sure that 4 EQ at Standard/Basic level is quite necessary- though I can confidently say that two is by far not enough.
I definitely agree that the CalLogi, if it isn't given a sidearm, should be bumped up to 3/3/4 as a minimum, and if both the Gal/Min Logis are given 4 equips across all levels, then so to should the Caldari.
With the Amarr... I can safely say that I would absolutely use four equip slots- as an example most of my AmLogi fits carry a scanner, links, and hives. I generally pick one of those- usually either the links or the hives, though sometimes the scanner is the one dropped- to replace in favor of a needle.
If I had four equipment slots, I would no longer need to choose- or really make a sacrifice of one equipment choice over another- which ones to fit on that suit, and which to leave behind. While those Logis who fit reps- and I have great respect for anyone who does purely because it seems that rep-leashing is one of the most boring things you can possibly do in DUST- still can and will have to make that decision... I won't.
I don't know if I'm pretty much an outlier with that decision- of not using rep tools, that is- or if it's somewhat common. But I do know that I don't think it's necessarily good game design that I no longer have to make that decision- of what to sacrifice, of what I can give up on that particular suit.
There are, IMO, two ways to fix that. One is to simply leave the Amarr Logi at 3 Equips, citing the additional combat-support flexibility conferred by the sidearm slot (IE, the greater ability to deploy LRs, PLCs, Swarms, and to a lesser degree the MD on the suit) as the reason.
Another option is to introduce other equipment options. IMO such items would be more combat-support oriented in their usage- like the much fabled "bubble shield/shield generator", and perhaps even some additional kinds of deployable explosives. Or maybe even a much-weakened, single-shot anti-vehicle weapon.
Or maybe we could finally get some anti-personnel mines... that would be really nice. I even just had a crazy thought that maybe, just maybe, anti-personnel mines would go a ways to fixing the scout spam problem.
I think I'm dreaming about that though. Probably won't happen- not for DUST at least.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
|