DUST Search - Vehicle Armour Module Balancing Discussion

Sir Dukey wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Sir Dukey wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Bump with two interesting comparisons

The Gunnlogi has
845 CPU
2120 PG

The Madrugar has
475 CPU
2490 PG

The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG
The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG

The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG
The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG

Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns.

The Madrugar has

- 44% less CPU
- 17% more PG
- All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption.

But shield extenders take up a sh*t ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sh*t even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster.

Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules.

I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish.

Actually, they do. I have shield fitting optimization ect. type skills to level 5 and Proto XT-201 missiles with Fitting optimization to level 4 and I meet maximum CPU after I put on a Complex Shield extender,harder, and heavy booster. I almost always instead of using booster,hardener,extender have to switch out one for some other module like damage mod or fuel injector. Now when I get to lows is where I have some versatility with basic armor modules for one slot as long as the other one is either PG or CPU.

I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15051	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:33:00 - [1] - Quote Having noted the disparities between the fitting capacity of say a Shield HAV and and Armour HAV, and given the current AV climate of Anti Armour weaponry, it has to be said that the fitting requirement of Armour Module is simply too great to allow for competitive armour HAV vs Shield HAV. For example A standard Heavily Shield Tanked Gunnlogi might fit, and have room for both small and large turrets and additional modules... 2x Complex Heavy Shield Extenders [+1325 Shielding] 1x Advanced/Complex Shield Hardener [40% shield resistance modifier] Shield HP: 5300 Shield EHP: 7120 Total EHP (unmodified): 8620 A Heavily Armour Tanked Madrugar might be able to fit, however sacrifices it's capacity to fit useful high slot modules and higher calibre Large Turrets and forgoes the capacity to fit small turrets. 1x Complex 120mm Armour Plating [+1885 Armour Plating] 1x Complex Heavy Armour Repairer [137.5 Armoure Reps/sec] 1x Advanced Armour Hardener [25% armour resistance modifier] Armour HP: 5885 Armour EHP: 7356.25 Total EHP (unmodified): 8556.25 As you might be able to see the capacity to fit full racial tank, higher tier turrets, high slot modules, and small turrets is significantly reduced on the Madrugar compared to the Gunnlogi. Coupled with the current Meta of having many Anti Armour AV options means that statistically the Madrugar is the inferior option, and in many other cases all armour tanked vehicles are statistically inferior. This is partly due to the allocations of PG and CPU extender units solely in the Low Slots. Simply put an Armour vehicle cannot afford to forgo the fitting of its racial tank type in the low slots to accommodate for these options and thus puts itself at a great disadvantage when it compared to shield HAV. Additionally in many respects it is almost wholly pointless to consider the passive repair units Armour vehicles have access to as Shield Vehicles also have prodigious passive repair capabilities as their Shields Pulse automatically back up to full without having to fit a single module. The passive repair capabilities are essentially negligible on most armour HAV. Vs Ion Cannon - You repair the equivalent of one round of 7 per second Vs Particle Cannon - You repair the equivalent of 0.12% of one round per second Vs XT-201 - .... well we all know how this one goes down.... Part of what makes Armour Vehicles more specifically HAV not worth driving at the moment is that they cannot be outfitted in the same manner as Shield HAV which should be the direct equivalent. Is it possible to consider looking at the numbers for rebalancing? Does anyone have any tweaks and suggestions for how to rectify this relative imbalance? I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15056	Posted - 2014.11.26 01:35:00 - [2] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: pretty sure you can do like 7-8k with 2 fuel injectors and missiles on a cal tank as well. mixing armor shield and reppers. Mix armour and Shield Modules a Gunnlogi can attain roughly 10,000 EHP. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15056	Posted - 2014.11.26 01:42:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Well first of all you're spot on with the Madrugar's lack of fitting resources. All too often my Madrugar fits have unfilled Highs because I'm completely out of resources from trying to fit what I feel is a satisfactory armor defense. Whereas on my Gunnlogi I can fit basically whatever I want and then have resources left over to stick armor plates, utility mods, ect in my lows. Secondly I think shield and armor is in a very weird place for vehicles right now. Shields naturally have the recharge rate which is a defining feature of the tanking style, in that (aside from a delay) the shields come back on their own at a steady rate. However their modules lend to a more burst tanking style, such as shield boosters having a large, single pulse of HP. So Shields are both a slow passive tank, as well as a high resist bursty tank. Armor on the other hand? It's easy to throw out the buzzphrase "stand and deliver" but what does that really mean? Ok it reps even while under fire, but how should those reps compare to the natural recharge of shields? Intuition lends to the answer being "more than shield regen" but by how much? If its too close to shields then shields are still superior due to the possibility of burst tanking. If its too high then you end up with unkillable rep armor tanks. So I guess my question to the community is, what is the proper ratio? Where does armor fit in in the grand scheme of vehicle tanking? Spot on as usual. I have noticed that in the current meta the Gunlogi can stand and deliver better than a Madrugar due to better fitting capacity and superior EHP. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15080	Posted - 2014.11.26 20:25:00 - [4] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm almost wondering if shields are fine as is but armor needs to move to a massive amount of HP with slower repair.. I agree with that general principle. I'd also say that a reworking of the PG/CPU of both the hulls plus the modules themselves would be much more healthy since there fitting of the two chassis's is wildly different: shields use a lot of PG and CPU,while armour takes a lot of PG - but the Maddy only has slightly more PG with a lot less CPU, comparatively. Personally, I think we need to do a good few things to make HAVs internally balanced with one another: - Shields need to rep passively at a lower rate and only delay when fully depleted - Armour needs strong active repair modules that are short lived - All racial hulls: Caldari with strong shield buffer; Gallente with passive rep(??); Amarr with higher armour buffer; Minmatar with higher shield repair rate(?) (Something like that anyway: racial hulls and turrets are incredibly important) - All racial turrets (as with hulls it's hard to balance when you have very little anti-shield weaponry) Those are my spitballs. Indeed reviewing how the armour and shield modules work in Dust 514 for vehicles is a must do. Now as Dravon mentioned before we'd been discussing how vehicles and how the associated tanking types should work for vehicles and one of the things he mentioned was about how Shield vehicles passively regenerate their shields is something that needs to be reconsidered. Shield's in EVE (most comparable examples) do not regenerate in pulses (Gunnlogi pulses 167 per second) but instead slowly and constantly passively repair X Shielding per second over time. I definitely believe that Shields should have a passive regeneration but it should not be anywhere near its current regenerative capacity. Additionally as Pokey Dravon, Velo0cet, and myself discussed in his vehicle rebalance thread we came to the conclusion that Shield Tanking in Dust should be about powerful short terms spikes of efficiency which equate to the longer in duration armour tanking modules which cycle more but all roughly equate to the same values. E.G- Heavy Efficient Armour Repairer used to pulse for 414 Armour Repairs every 3 seconds for 5 cycles. 4145 = 2070 reps over 15 seconds The Current Shield Booster instantly repairs 1900 Shield for a one off pulse. Imagine if this was broken down into three consecutive pulses over a 12 second period. 1950 / 3 = 650 over 12 seconds (pulse every 4 seconds) Comparable HP regains with Armour accounting for its typically larger HP values and lack of passive regeneration. We also discussed the rebalancing of vehicle hulls so they better account for racial tanking types and all hulls from highest EHP to lowest have only a 10-15% difference. Amarr 800/4000 Gallente 1000/3625 Caldari 3200/1000 Minmatar 2750/1300 Or something like that. Thoughts? I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...*
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15080	Posted - 2014.11.26 20:36:00 - [5] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I'm almost wondering if shields are fine as is but armor needs to move to a massive amount of HP with slower repair.. This+1 I fundamentally do not believe so. Shields vehicles especially HAV can attain ungodly and frankly too high EHP values armour 9-10K which is a number that should be solely relegated to Marauders if they make a return. There is no reason that it should take 6 PRO forge gun shots to drop an HAV..... if Marauders ever make a come back it could take AV in the region of 8-10 to down such a vehicle...... For Example - To prove my point HAV have too much EHP I will pick on the Sica "Shameless EHP ****". 1x 80 GJ Particle Cannon 1x Complex Heavy Shield Extender 1x Complex Shield Hardener 1x Complex 120mm Armour Plate 1x Complex PG Extender Look at that fit right there........ on a Miltia Tank...... good god a Madrugar or Soma Pilot should weep for the injustice. Shield HP: 3975 Shield EHP: 5565 (1.2 = 6678 vs explosive and kinetic AV) Total Unmodified EHP: 5565 + 3385 = 8950 (9386 vs Explosive and Kinetic AV inclusive of anti armour bonuses) 9K EHP on a militia tank able to fit all prototype modules......... that not even accounting that the Sica will have passive reps after 4 seconds of 168 Shield per second........ better than any armour repper any day of the week. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15084	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:47:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I think the fact that you can fit armor plates of any sizable amount on a Shitca/Gunnlogi is a damn crime since you can't do the same with shields on a Soma/Madrugar. That's a glaring issue right there. I mean let's just take a typical look at the main rack you're gong to see on a Shield vs Armor HAV Shield 2 Hardeners 1 Extender Armor 1 Hardener 1 Plate 1 Repairer Now, the Shield extender is less HP than the Armor Plate, but not by a huge margin. And again you have a shield hardener giving less benefit than an armor hardener, but you have 2 of them which pushes its eHP significantly above that of the armor tank, even with the lesser resist and buffer. I guess it comes down to, ok shield tanks, you get natural reps (and really good ones at that) without the need of a module to do so. If that's the case, even if armor reps remain comparable to natural shield regen, that armor HAV must have more eHP than the shield vehicle. I mean hell look at a typical Caldari Sentinel fit vs an Amarr Sentinel fit. The Caldari tends to be more focused around short delays and fast regen instead of stacking nothing but extenders, whereas most Amarr Sentinels stack on 3-4 plates and have insanely higher HP. Hell having talked with Quasar Storm he suggests to me that there are only two kinds of competitive fits. Spiked Gunnlogi - Damage Modded Sponged Gunnlogi - 2x Extenders 1x Hardener As you either need to be able to dish out more damage than your opponent as quickly as possible or have enough EHP to brawl them into submission. Also I think you got mixed up there as the Shield Hardener gives 15% more resistance than Armour Hardeners. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15084	Posted - 2014.11.26 22:06:00 - [7] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: And there is only one viable Madrugar fits sans maybe some minor variation with utility. Ohh thats right, they do give more, not sure what I was thinking. So yeah, Shield tanks get 2 40% hardeners and Armor gets 1 25%. That sounds perfectly reasonable What do the eHP values come out to if you flip those resistance percentages? 25% for shield and 40% for armor? Assuming the Madrugar fit is 1x Hardener 2x Reppers Armour EHP = 5600 Total Unmodified EHP = 6800 on 1x Complex 120mm Plate 1x Complex Hardener 1x ______ Heavy Repairer Armour EHP = 8239 Total Unmodified EHP = 9439 Which is also too much for a standard HAV. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15125	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:38:00 - [8] - Quote Nothing? Not a word of acknowledgement that something is distinctly wrong here? I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15125	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:50:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Nothing? Not a word of acknowledgement that something is distinctly wrong here? Bluntly HAVs can have marauder values as far as I'm concerned if I can have Chromosome AV values back But that then insinuates that the Sica being able to fit a full prototype load out to have comparable to marauder EHP values is okay vehicle design.... how can it be? It's also suggest that its fine to not return Marauders to the game because "Hell the Militia variant does it anyway..." I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15126	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:20:00 - [10] - Quote Draden Brohiem wrote: I don't armor tank for this reason, and also the slow turning speed?! Shield tanking is more effective. I loved armour tanking and honestly its more viable mobility wise than it used to be..... but yeah the reason I don't armour tank like I used to is because Shield HAV have great EHP, Resistances, stand and deliver capacity, mobility, and fitting capacity without having to sacrifice anything. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15197	Posted - 2014.11.29 06:52:00 - [11] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Why not just decrease the CPU cost of armor modules? Then increase their PG costs and buff armor vehicles' PG. Should be easier fitting armor modules to armor vehicles than to shield vehicles. I also think that another problem at play here is the lack of module variety. I will admit that I have a complex light armor rep on my Gunnlogi (advanced large missiles with small blaster and railgun, and all complex shield extender, hardener, missile damage, and CPU). But tell me, what else am I supposed to fit in my lows with all that extra fitting? (I can't add any armor modules if I have proto large missiles, so keep that in mind). I've already ran fits with ammo expanders, but the armor rep is more useful, though so far I haven't needed it since I added it about a week ago. And I don't mind running to a supply depot every once in a while. I'll gladly trade my armor rep for some chassis upgrades, and maybe the CPU mod as well if removing the light rep frees up that much CPU. I also hate it when people bash Gunnlogis on the forums when all they have in mind is their potential EHP abilities. Look at my fit above: 3950 shield, 1500 armor. First, AV always gets the first hit on me so my shield hardener is never up for max EHP when I'm attacked by AV. Second, aside from the armor rep which I'd trade for a chassis upgrade, my Gunnlogi is properly shield tanked. I even forego a potential shield module for a damage amplifier. I feel like the Gunnlogi is properly balanced when fit as intended. What needs to be looked at, as I said at the very top, are armor modules themselves and armor vehicles. Just simply nerfing the Gunnlogi's fitting will nerf fits that are already at fair play. That does not make armour module use any more viable vs AV. Vs explsove AV I can afford to ignore swarm launchers. This is only at best a Standard or t1 vehicle it is not a T2 or advanced vehicle and should not nealy have so much EHP. Now I'm not suggesting nerfing shield in anyway more the dropping their passive reps to something more manageable and to consider a vehicle rebalancing whereby players can use Armour HAV competitively vs shields. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15297	Posted - 2014.12.02 01:09:00 - [12] - Quote Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15302	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:22:00 - [13] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules. I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15303	Posted - 2014.12.02 02:37:00 - [14] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bump with two interesting comparisons The Gunnlogi has 845 CPU 2120 PG The Madrugar has 475 CPU 2490 PG The Basic Armour Hardener 87 CPU and 293 PG The Complex Armour Hardener 133 CPU and 397 PG The Basic Shield Hardener 213 CPU and 158 PG The Complex Shield Hardener 279 CPU an 225 PG Shield Hardener offers 15% more buffer against incoming AV damage and provides a natural buffer vs most AV options including the Forge Gun, Swarm Launcher, AV Grenades, Large and Small Missile Turrets, and Large and Small Railguns. The Madrugar has - 44% less CPU - 17% more PG - All Module fitting requirement including turrets have massive PG consumption. But shield extenders take up a sht ton of PG. But I agree, Armor tanks need CPU buff. I literally can't fit sht even with a lot of armor skills maxed and fitting skills maxed on my madrugar and that is with a ADV blaster. Shield Modules actually don't take up much CPU despite appearances. You can very easily fit a full racial tank, prototype turrets, and prototype small turrets since you have ease of access to fitting modules. I mean the total DPS on one of those things is something like 2300ish. Actually, they do. I have shield fitting optimization ect. type skills to level 5 and Proto XT-201 missiles with Fitting optimization to level 4 and I meet maximum CPU after I put on a Complex Shield extender,harder, and heavy booster. I almost always instead of using booster,hardener,extender have to switch out one for some other module like damage mod or fuel injector. Now when I get to lows is where I have some versatility with basic armor modules for one slot as long as the other one is either PG or CPU. That's my point. Shield HAV should not have the capacity to ALSO armour tank. Their fitting skills are too high and need rebalancing to bring them down to acceptable EHP values for what they are. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15319	Posted - 2014.12.02 03:08:00 - [15] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Ok...so the hulls are imbalanced...what about the modules? Let's take a look at the Complex HSE vs the Complex 120 mm Plate The Complex Heavy Shield Extender gives us 1325 shield hit points for the cost of 264 CPU and 587 PGU with a 7% shield depleted recharge delay penalty. This means that we have: 5.02 HP/CPU 2.26 HP/PGU The Complex 120 MM Plate gives us 1885 armor hit points for the cost of 126 CPU and 896 PGU with a 10% penalty to acceleration and movement speed. This gives us: 14.96 HP/CPU 2.10 HP/PGU not really sure where I'm going with this...probably going to do a comparison to the Space-Side things (using frigates) but it's a little weird to compare caldari ships (which are usually either bricks or kiters) to gallente ships (who at the frigate scale are almost exclusively nano-tankers) I might need to go through more comparisons with the Amarr and Minmatar ships as well Bear in mind though shields currently have a passive regenerative ability that outstrips Armour repairers without having to use a module slot. While this may not matter in direct close quarters combat, at long range and vs AV this amounts to a significant advantage. Basically on a competitive tank fit I can achieve greater EHP values and have comparable repair values (outside of short ranged combat) due to natural resistances to primary AV forms and 15% more efficient hardener modules. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15331	Posted - 2014.12.02 19:57:00 - [16] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books That could certainly help mitigate some fitting issues but it doesn't addess the benefits the Shield HAV would recieve over the armour HAV and make the PG and CPU accessibility in the lows redundant only further encouraging the use of Armour modules. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15396	Posted - 2014.12.03 20:40:00 - [17] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: True Adamance wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Wouldnt be much of a problem if we had basic core skills such i dont know how about 5% PG/CPU per level for the engineering and electronics skill books That could certainly help mitigate some fitting issues but it doesn't addess the benefits the Shield HAV would recieve over the armour HAV and make the PG and CPU accessibility in the lows redundant only further encouraging the use of Armour modules. 1. The PG/CPU modules have always been low slot, this is not a problem 2. The main problem will always be the small amount of CPU they give to the Madrugar, the base skills would help at a minimum, i would say bring them back and if it is still hard to fit up a decent armor tank compared to shield then look again 3. The difference in Armor and Shield are also bigger this time around due to 1.7 vehicle shake up where it was a mass clear out of everything fun and useful, back in chrome armor was king but a few tweeks and changes and shield would have been on par 1.) I can accept that but coupling nearly twice the CPU and a comparable PG value with the additional capacity to fit such modules is poor balance indeed. 2.) Indeed I spoke with Arkena and Sgt Kirk yesterday evening about it and on my fits I cannot even fit comparably tiered modules, turrets, and high 3.) Very true however I believe that Shield tanking can remain viable under its current modules , sans of course the 168 passive pulsed reps, while armour can be restored with a return to the 180mm plates, active reppers, and a buff of armour hardeners to 30%. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...