DUST Search - To Rattati: Minmatar and shield tanking.

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Minmatar are supposed to be regen tankers. They aren't able to stack as much health as Caldari or Amarr, but they can regen it faster than those races. So shield tanked suits should regen shield faster in exchange for less shield health, and the same for armor.

However, this does not play out in game. Not only do Caldari Have more base health, but they also have better delays AND better regen than Minmatar. Minmatar shield tanks are litterally worse in every way to Caldari. I believe this needs rectifying. I think the 3 aspects of shield tanking (Health, delays, regen) should play out thusly:

1. Health. Caldari should have more shield health, plain and simple. Minmatar are about regen, not high health. This is as it should be. Change: none.

2. Delays. I think these should be identical to Caldari. Both races need to have decent delays if they're going to be viable, and in fairness, at least one stat needs to be identical between the races in order for them to be balanced. I think this area is the best candidate to be equal. Change: buff Minmatar shield delays to match current Caldari delays.

3. Regen. As regen tankers, Minmatar should regen faster than Caldari. hile they don't have a large health pool, the ability to bring it back quickly helps their hit-and-run playstyle, allowing them to quickly get back in battle-shape for the next engagement. Change: Either switch Caldari and Minmatar regen numbers, or buff Minmatar to be higher than current Caldari regen numbers.

In this way, Minmatar have a niche when it comes to shield tanking, and emphasizes their hit-and-run nature.

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Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2203	Posted - 2014.11.20 07:48:00 - [1] - Quote from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Minmatar are supposed to be regen tankers. They aren't able to stack as much health as Caldari or Amarr, but they can regen it faster than those races. So shield tanked suits should regen shield faster in exchange for less shield health, and the same for armor. However, this does not play out in game. Not only do Caldari Have more base health, but they also have better delays AND better regen than Minmatar. Minmatar shield tanks are litterally worse in every way to Caldari. I believe this needs rectifying. I think the 3 aspects of shield tanking (Health, delays, regen) should play out thusly: 1. Health. Caldari should have more shield health, plain and simple. Minmatar are about regen, not high health. This is as it should be. Change: none. 2. Delays. I think these should be identical to Caldari. Both races need to have decent delays if they're going to be viable, and in fairness, at least one stat needs to be identical between the races in order for them to be balanced. I think this area is the best candidate to be equal. Change: buff Minmatar shield delays to match current Caldari delays. 3. Regen. As regen tankers, Minmatar should regen faster than Caldari. hile they don't have a large health pool, the ability to bring it back quickly helps their hit-and-run playstyle, allowing them to quickly get back in battle-shape for the next engagement. Change: Either switch Caldari and Minmatar regen numbers, or buff Minmatar to be higher than current Caldari regen numbers. In this way, Minmatar have a niche when it comes to shield tanking, and emphasizes their hit-and-run nature. Proof that Rattati/CCP do listen to the playerbase.
Fizzer XCIV Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 1177	Posted - 2014.11.20 07:54:00 - [2] - Quote For the bajillionth time... Minmatar are not exclusively shield tankers. They are dual tankers. The 4/4 layout and fairly equal base HP is my evidence. Wild cards. They use either both shields and armor, or one of either... along with speed. Always speed. They have leanings towards shields, but armor tanked Minmatar are niether a rarity or an oddity. Plus, Minmatar suits aren't really hurting. They're stuff is fine as is. It fits them both in lore, and balance right now. Please, make my Opus pretty...
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 347	Posted - 2014.11.20 08:11:00 - [3] - Quote I would like to see more of there ehp converted to shields so lasers may smite them. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
The Master Race Immortal Guides 347	Posted - 2014.11.20 08:11:00 - [4] - Quote I would like to see more of there ehp converted to shields so lasers may smite them. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 133	Posted - 2014.11.20 10:08:00 - [5] - Quote Minmatar have shields, armor, speed/stamina. Decent in all, & more than decent in the latter. Caldari have shields.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14879	Posted - 2014.11.20 10:20:00 - [6] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: For the bajillionth time... Minmatar are not exclusively shield tankers. They are dual tankers. The 4/4 layout and fairly equal base HP is my evidence. Wild cards. They use either both shields and armor, or one of either... along with speed. Always speed. They have leanings towards shields, but armor tanked Minmatar are niether a rarity or an oddity. Plus, Minmatar suits aren't really hurting. They're stuff is fine as is. It fits them both in lore, and balance right now. No exclusively shield regen tankers you mean. Traditionally he Minmatar are primarily Shield Tankers I would suggest as evinced by their racial Logi Cruiser Bonuses to Shield Transportation and arguable great allotment of shield in many cases over armour..... However that is not to say they cannot armour tank well.....which they can..... "The moment passed in thunder and calamitous intent and yet no order was given to retreat or give their ground"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5164	Posted - 2014.11.20 10:44:00 - [7] - Quote Generally given the low HP and lethal vulnerability to lasers minmatar really do need a lot of tactical flexibility because while speed is fun, if you can't take the return hit from the enemy without crumpling you're screwed anyway. The ability to purpose fit minmatar fits results in greater tactical flexibility and allows minmatar to perform almost any role from fast attack and skirmish warfare to point defense and brawling. Most people don't bother trying creative fits on minmatar suits. If you were doing it as intended you'd need about four different fits for each suit class at each tier. Minimum. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 332	Posted - 2014.11.20 10:55:00 - [8] - Quote My thought is that while not having the recharge as caldaris, the time to full health should be shorter. Meaning, since they have smaller shield hp, a slightly lower recharge (than caldaris) and smaller delays should make it possible to get that full charge back in shorter time... I think energizers should be a big thing for minnies. They have small shields anyway, so sacrificing a small amount is not that big of a deal, but having that fast recharge pays of a lot... I'm all for parity betwheen cal and min considering delay. I even think they should have more innert armour reps, while gallente should get higher bonuses for repping modules. Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
Stupid Blueberry Hyasyoda Terrestrial Acquisitions Firm 600	Posted - 2014.11.20 11:03:00 - [9] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: For the bajillionth time... Minmatar are not exclusively shield tankers. They are dual tankers. The 4/4 layout and fairly equal base HP is my evidence. Wild cards. They use either both shields and armor, or one of either... along with speed. Always speed. They have leanings towards shields, but armor tanked Minmatar are niether a rarity or an oddity. Plus, Minmatar suits aren't really hurting. They're stuff is fine as is. It fits them both in lore, and balance right now. They are dual tankers, and in EVE, armor tanking ends up becoming the more popular choice. Speed+ Armor HP with free slots for damage or utility. Look at a lot of Rifter fits. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Haajakin Kalen.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 682	Posted - 2014.11.20 13:28:00 - [10] - Quote shields need to be redone using the shield formula. shield recharge rate = shield hp / shield recharge TIME what this does, and that formula has been simplified from eve's, is adjust the shield recharge rate according to how much shield you have. the more shields you have, the higher your recharge rate would be. currently we dont have or use a shield recharge time variable. we can calculate it from each suits stats and then put it in the formula though. lets say a minmatar suit had a recharge time of 10 seconds. what that means is, your shields must recharge to full in 10 seconds. so if you only had 100 total shield hp, and the recharge time was 10 seconds, your shield would recharge at 10hp/s but if you had 400 shield hp, your shields would recharge at 40hp/s instead. both amounts of shield hp would be fully recharge at the end of 10 seconds. the formulae scale the recharge rate according to your max hp. this helps counter the issue of shield not having remote reps or reps that cant be stopped by damage. if that happened. a dual tanked minmatar assault would be beast. and caldari suits would be regen tanking fortresses

Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2595	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:08:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: For the bajillionth time... Minmatar are not exclusively shield tankers. They are dual tankers. The 4/4 layout and fairly equal base HP is my evidence. Wild cards. They use either both shields and armor, or one of either... along with speed. Always speed. They have leanings towards shields, but armor tanked Minmatar are niether a rarity or an oddity. Plus, Minmatar suits aren't really hurting. They're stuff is fine as is. It fits them both in lore, and balance right now. No exclusively shield regen tankers you mean. Traditionally he Minmatar are primarily Shield Tankers I would suggest as evinced by their racial Logi Cruiser Bonuses to Shield Transportation and arguable great allotment of shield in many cases over armour..... However that is not to say they cannot armour tank well.....which they can..... Well, if we're bringing Eve into this, the Nidhogger, the Minmatar triage carrier, has bonuses to both armor and shield repair and I think is a better representation of Minmatar doctrine than the Scythe. Not Min ships are the same, some prefer armor, others shield, others both. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2237	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:10:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Generally given the low HP and lethal vulnerability to lasers minmatar really do need a lot of tactical flexibility because while speed is fun, if you can't take the return hit from the enemy without crumpling you're screwed anyway. The ability to purpose fit minmatar fits results in greater tactical flexibility and allows minmatar to perform almost any role from fast attack and skirmish warfare to point defense and brawling. Most people don't bother trying creative fits on minmatar suits. If you were doing it as intended you'd need about four different fits for each suit class at each tier. Minimum. Creative fitter and Minmatar purist.... I guess that I am not most people.... Gò¡Gê¬Gò«(Gùú_Gùó)Gò¡Gê¬Gò«
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5173	Posted - 2014.11.20 14:59:00 - [13] - Quote Most people believe in one optimal build. Im finding the minmatar commando and assaults to be engines of purest hilarity and surprise violence. No I don't use minmando for AV ever. I use the minsent alternately as flanking murder monster or occasionally damp it to hell for pure amusement. Then we won't talk about my long distance runner/gank fits. Honestly caldari and minmatar fits are hands down my favorites. Amarr and gallente play is too close to pocket sentinel. I play sentinel all the time. Why do I want to use the same style of build when I'm running assault/logi? I do it that way on scouts because I don't have the ewar capacity or fitting benefits of scout level 5. But then I just run madbomber fits anyway. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 154	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:16:00 - [14] - Quote Amarr are armor tanks Caldari are shield tanks Gallente are Primary Armor/Armor Regen Minmatar is Dual tank/Neutral Regen Thats the basic idea but you can mess around with it too. Sentinel/Commando
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 154	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:20:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Generally given the low HP and lethal vulnerability to lasers minmatar really do need a lot of tactical flexibility because while speed is fun, if you can't take the return hit from the enemy without crumpling you're screwed anyway. The ability to purpose fit minmatar fits results in greater tactical flexibility and allows minmatar to perform almost any role from fast attack and skirmish warfare to point defense and brawling. Most people don't bother trying creative fits on minmatar suits. If you were doing it as intended you'd need about four different fits for each suit class at each tier. Minimum. Totally true, I have many different Minmatar Commandos ranging from Damage heavy, Shield heavy, Armor heavy, Dual tank, CQC with melee bonus, Speed hacker, Point Defense, Assault, and AV. Very flexible compared to all my other commandos. Sentinel is pretty much as flexible with more combat orientated fits. Sentinel/Commando
Cavani1EE7 Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 536	Posted - 2014.11.20 15:21:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Minmatar are supposed to be regen tankers. They aren't able to stack as much health as Caldari or Amarr, but they can regen it faster than those races. So shield tanked suits should regen shield faster in exchange for less shield health, and the same for armor. However, this does not play out in game. Not only do Caldari Have more base health, but they also have better delays AND better regen than Minmatar. Minmatar shield tanks are litterally worse in every way to Caldari. I believe this needs rectifying. I think the 3 aspects of shield tanking (Health, delays, regen) should play out thusly: 1. Health. Caldari should have more shield health, plain and simple. Minmatar are about regen, not high health. This is as it should be. Change: none. 2. Delays. I think these should be identical to Caldari. Both races need to have decent delays if they're going to be viable, and in fairness, at least one stat needs to be identical between the races in order for them to be balanced. I think this area is the best candidate to be equal. Change: buff Minmatar shield delays to match current Caldari delays. 3. Regen. As regen tankers, Minmatar should regen faster than Caldari. hile they don't have a large health pool, the ability to bring it back quickly helps their hit-and-run playstyle, allowing them to quickly get back in battle-shape for the next engagement. Change: Either switch Caldari and Minmatar regen numbers, or buff Minmatar to be higher than current Caldari regen numbers. In this way, Minmatar have a niche when it comes to shield tanking, and emphasizes their hit-and-run nature. Denied. I don't want them to be speed, armor and perfectly shield tanked, as if they wouldn't be OP already. Leave shields to Caldari. Take a bow
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 8113	Posted - 2014.11.20 16:36:00 - [17] - Quote Best Minmatar Assault runs a decent shield tank with good regen, with a healthy armor tank and complex repair. Combine with speed, and you got one tough dude dude who's quick on his feet. Hybrid Tanking is best for Min. Go for a shield main and good armor backup. That being said, I do have an armor tanked Min Assault for when the Amarr try to be funny with their lasers... Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 187	Posted - 2014.11.20 17:51:00 - [18] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Minmatar are supposed to be regen tankers. They aren't able to stack as much health as Caldari or Amarr, but they can regen it faster than those races. So shield tanked suits should regen shield faster in exchange for less shield health, and the same for armor. However, this does not play out in game. Not only do Caldari Have more base health, but they also have better delays AND better regen than Minmatar. Minmatar shield tanks are litterally worse in every way to Caldari. I believe this needs rectifying. I think the 3 aspects of shield tanking (Health, delays, regen) should play out thusly: 1. Health. Caldari should have more shield health, plain and simple. Minmatar are about regen, not high health. This is as it should be. Change: none. 2. Delays. I think these should be identical to Caldari. Both races need to have decent delays if they're going to be viable, and in fairness, at least one stat needs to be identical between the races in order for them to be balanced. I think this area is the best candidate to be equal. Change: buff Minmatar shield delays to match current Caldari delays. 3. Regen. As regen tankers, Minmatar should regen faster than Caldari. hile they don't have a large health pool, the ability to bring it back quickly helps their hit-and-run playstyle, allowing them to quickly get back in battle-shape for the next engagement. Change: Either switch Caldari and Minmatar regen numbers, or buff Minmatar to be higher than current Caldari regen numbers. In this way, Minmatar have a niche when it comes to shield tanking, and emphasizes their hit-and-run nature. Im fine with how they are now, if a minmitar assault (for example) wants to shield tank, they can fit more regulators than a caldari can and will end up with lower delay, etc. However I do think the delay in general is too long on assault suits of all types (possibly on commandos as well). This is particularly obvious when you look at the caldari sentinel and caldari scout vs. caldari assault/minmatar assault, where the assaults have to wait 5-7 seconds longer to get their shields to start coming back. Edit to add: Maybe the problem is the delay is too short on the cal scout/sentinel. They have less slots to fit regulators, so it seems like someone just said "**** it" and expected the assaults to fit regulators and the scouts/sentinel got the problem solved for them as a basic part of their suit, but this is not how armor suits seem to have been balanced, gal sentinel and scout still have to fit repair modules to get the vast majority of their repair stats, because the base repair for all the suits is pretty similar.


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