Just for the record, in a 300-400 eHP scout suit a blast from a HMG is a one hit kill.

Yet it usually takes 3+ shots from a SG on target to kill the gentleman wielding said HMG.

I reject your proposal. Good day to you.

Proposed changes
Increase the range of shotguns, so that they are defensible up to around 30 to 40 meters. TTK at this range should be longer than rifles, but shotguns still remain a threat to wounded targets.

Tighten up the spread of shotguns. Up to around 15 to 20 meters, you should be able to distinguish aiming for the upper or lower half of the body. The closer you get from 15m will obviously make clean headshots "easier".

Lower damage. Full, clean, body shot should take off no than around 200 damage. From there, DPS will fluctuate depending on range, number of pellets that make contact, number of pellets that make contact with the head and of course meta level/SP/modifiers/breach variant.

Increase breach shotgun clip size by 2.



Implications of proposed changes
Shotguns become kings of cover-based engagements in CQC environments. Running in to a room and shotgunning 4 people in 1-2 shots will only be viable to those who are truly skilled enough to pull off headshots consistently. The tightening of the spread makes shotgunning at 5 meters slightly more difficult but still viable.

Increases TTK when using shotguns, however shotguns still remains a strong cqc option, especially in structural cover-based environments because of the increased range and best hipfire for the 10-20 meter range.

"But what about HMGs? Who's going to stop them now?"
HMGs are ridiculously overpowered weapons in terms of DPS, but this is augmented by the fact that HMGs can sustain fire for a very long time which is ALSO augmented by the fact that the platform HMGs operate on usually have 1000-1500HP or more. This shotgun idea was thought up in a world where HMGs are balanced. (I personally think that HMGs need larger dispersion and kick penalties while moving and making large aim adjustments, decreasing applied DPS in frantic CQC engagements without decreasing potential DPS )



Reasons
King of CQC? More like King of sexual assault. Seriously, having to get sooo close for this weapon to work is unappealing for several reasons. Narrow frame of view and low frames creates some really silly moments with this gun, especially when it's shotgun vs shotgun. Silly moments such as two fast strafing opponents shooting thin air, as they dodge in and out of each others frame of view. Then you get another silly moment where someone back pedals 5 meters and all of a sudden you are shooting marshmallows at the opponent. But the cheesiest moments of all, are all the ridiculous one hit kills you can get, just from body shots.

"But I got close! I deserve an EZ kill!"

No, you deserve an advantage, but definitely not a one or even two hit kill unless they were headshots. Closing the distance on an enemy is not that difficult, unless you are shotgunning on an open field (In this case, I believe the saying goes, "there is a time and a place for that").

I'm a firm believer that a fun shooter requires two things: Fair competition and meaningful player to player engagement. Easy one hit kills robs the victim of any meaningful engagement with the shotgunner. Being one hit killed by any means, shouldn't be a common occurrence in a game where the maps and spawn times are large. Especially in a game where people pay real money for gear.

"But EWAR!!!!"

Ewar is a flawed, overly simplistic, thumb-war style mechanic that is only useful for scout suits. To put it simply, I think more people find Ewar in this game more annoying and cheap rather than a fun and engaging mechanic. It's a stupid "all or nothing" mechanic. As an example: I can put dampeners, precision enhancers and range extenders (I actually tried these) on my minmatar and amarr assault but more often than not, when I die, I feel like these modules were useless because, I still got scanned, "snuck up" on, and 10m scan radius on a medium is a joke when the only threat to you inside 10m are scout shottys that you won't be able to pick up anyway, even with precision enhancers. They were wasted modules that were better off traded in for militia shield extenders and armor plates.




Anyway shotguns as they are now, are silly. What do you think about this?

@nocturnal
I just really feel that CCP's original intention for this shotgun doesn't translate well with how the rest of the game developed. Playing with and against shotguns just feels kinda cheap.

@Eruditus
I don't think you actually read my post. HMGs are overpowered but this idea is derived from the context of a rebalance HMG, not the HMG as we know it today.

@Yelhsa
I actually also have a Gallante assault with a shotgun that I use pretty frequently for the lols. I fail to see how it would ruin the fitting? This isn't about suits, it's about the shotgun, which isn't exclusive to scout suits.

You posted something?

no. breach is fine at 2 shots, but should be lethal at 20-25 m tops as the high dmg long rng option.
reg shotgun should be lethal at 10-15.

last time i used one you need to be in like 6-8m to do damage.

needs faster ads turning speed.
new iron sights.
more ammo for breach (not clip. just max capacity)

shotgun would be fine.

Proposed changes
Increase the range of shotguns, so that they are defensible up to around 30 to 40 meters. TTK at this range should be longer than rifles, but shotguns still remain a threat to wounded targets.

Tighten up the spread of shotguns. Up to around 15 to 20 meters, you should be able to distinguish aiming for the upper or lower half of the body. The closer you get from 15m will obviously make clean headshots "easier".

Lower damage. Full, clean, body shot should take off no than around 200 damage. From there, DPS will fluctuate depending on range, number of pellets that make contact, number of pellets that make contact with the head and of course meta level/SP/modifiers/breach variant.

Increase breach shotgun clip size by 2.



Implications of proposed changes
Shotguns become kings of cover-based engagements in CQC environments. Running in to a room and shotgunning 4 people in 1-2 shots will only be viable to those who are truly skilled enough to pull off headshots consistently. The tightening of the spread makes shotgunning at 5 meters slightly more difficult but still viable.

Increases TTK when using shotguns, however shotguns still remains a strong cqc option, especially in structural cover-based environments because of the increased range and best hipfire for the 10-20 meter range.

"But what about HMGs? Who's going to stop them now?"
HMGs are ridiculously overpowered weapons in terms of DPS, but this is augmented by the fact that HMGs can sustain fire for a very long time which is ALSO augmented by the fact that the platform HMGs operate on usually have 1000-1500HP or more. This shotgun idea was thought up in a world where HMGs are balanced. (I personally think that HMGs need larger dispersion and kick penalties while moving and making large aim adjustments, decreasing applied DPS in frantic CQC engagements without decreasing potential DPS )



Reasons
King of CQC? More like King of sexual assault. Seriously, having to get sooo close for this weapon to work is unappealing for several reasons. Narrow frame of view and low frames creates some really silly moments with this gun, especially when it's shotgun vs shotgun. Silly moments such as two fast strafing opponents shooting thin air, as they dodge in and out of each others frame of view. Then you get another silly moment where someone back pedals 5 meters and all of a sudden you are shooting marshmallows at the opponent. But the cheesiest moments of all, are all the ridiculous one hit kills you can get, just from body shots.

"But I got close! I deserve an EZ kill!"

No, you deserve an advantage, but definitely not a one or even two hit kill unless they were headshots. Closing the distance on an enemy is not that difficult, unless you are shotgunning on an open field (In this case, I believe the saying goes, "there is a time and a place for that").

I'm a firm believer that a fun shooter requires two things: Fair competition and meaningful player to player engagement. Easy one hit kills robs the victim of any meaningful engagement with the shotgunner. Being one hit killed by any means, shouldn't be a common occurrence in a game where the maps and spawn times are large. Especially in a game where people pay real money for gear.

"But EWAR!!!!"

Ewar is a flawed, overly simplistic, thumb-war style mechanic that is only useful for scout suits. To put it simply, I think more people find Ewar in this game more annoying and cheap rather than a fun and engaging mechanic. It's a stupid "all or nothing" mechanic. As an example: I can put dampeners, precision enhancers and range extenders (I actually tried these) on my minmatar and amarr assault but more often than not, when I die, I feel like these modules were useless because, I still got scanned, "snuck up" on, and 10m scan radius on a medium is a joke when the only threat to you inside 10m are scout shottys that you won't be able to pick up anyway, even with precision enhancers. They were wasted modules that were better off traded in for militia shield extenders and armor plates.




Anyway shotguns as they are now, are silly. What do you think about this?

@Pocket Rocket
I agree that with the proposed change that the HMG should be viable for longer range engagements. I was actually going to elaborate more on the HMG but didn't want my post to get too convoluted. I imagine that the sweet spot for HMGs would be around 40-60 meters, however to get the most DPS out of it would require crouching to offset the DPS/health advantage of a heavy.

Opponents closer than that would require larger aim adjustments, which means larger kick and dispersion penalties, which makes the heavy more vulnerable to fast moving targets that are close.

Opponents farther away would receive less dps due to efficiency, but would otherwise still be suppressed.

The reason why I don't agree with you is because 90% of the fighting take place within 20m at most it would take a scout about 3 seconds to close the distance for a sg to not tickle you plus with there being such a big ewar disparity it unlikely you'd see them coming unless your paranoid.

I think you missed that she was being sarcastic.

@Pocket Rocket
I agree that with the proposed change that the HMG should be viable for longer range engagements. I was actually going to elaborate more on the HMG but didn't want my post to get too convoluted. I imagine that the sweet spot for HMGs would be around 40-60 meters, however to get the most DPS out of it would require crouching to offset the DPS/health advantage of a heavy.

Opponents closer than that would require larger aim adjustments, which means larger kick and dispersion penalties, which makes the heavy more vulnerable to fast moving targets that are close.

Opponents farther away would receive less dps due to efficiency, but would otherwise still be suppressed.

Just for the record, in a 15 eHP scout suit a blast from a HMG is a one hit kill.

the HMG already has problem hitting targets. there have been so many times when a scout or a asult suit would fill my targeting circle and still no damage being done

......... You lost me at 30-40m

You guys do know that shot guns are short range engagement weapons not 200 dps 30-40 meter weapons that kill 2-4 four people In a room

I'm done really I'm just done

......... You lost me at 30-40m

You guys do know that shot guns are short range engagement weapons not 200 dps 30-40 meter weapons that kill 2-4 four people In a room

I'm done really I'm just done

Are you high? Shotguns need a nerf so bad, why do you think half of dust uses them? Grab a militia shotgun and kill a proto heavy in 3-4 hits befor he can get half way to turning around, they are basically easy mode for players.

Bet you use remotes with them dont ya? Your one of `those' people

10-20 meters still seems to much sg's are short range weapons with high dps what your asking for is a completely different weapon 200 dsp at that range is still actually a lot I believe less than the sg's but still a lot .

The bolt pistol does a good amount of damage at an even longer range. I always thought the shotgun needed what the op described to a t.

This would make cloaked shotgun scouts not as devastating and maybe the gallente assualt bonus could apply to that spread.

So making a shotgun take 6~8 body shots to kill a heavy is a buff? Also, why do people think nothing should be able to easily take down a proto sentinel

Hit detection issues are not exclusive to HMGs... Sniper rifles, shotguns, and yes, HMGs still blue shield for me too. And i'm willing to bet that other automatic weaponry still suffer from hit detection issues as well (although not as noticeable).

That being said, HMGs are still stand out against all in regards to battlefield performance. I play in a 1100HP lvl5 Caldari Sentinel with an MH-82. This is the only fitting that allows me to literally fill the killfeed with only my name in the Gallente research map, despite multiple people shooting me. The only consistent threats to me is when I the enemy team uses heavies and when I run out of ammo. This is blatantly overpowered.