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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3387
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Posted - 2014.10.22 02:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:One Eyed King wrote:I guess my view of roles would be that Heavies had more innate shields/armor, to withstand some damage, but that they should have LESS regen than an Assault, who would be more cover based.
What is the rationale for giving sentinals more regen than Assaults while at the same time giving them higher HP? Something I thought of as I pasted this, Assault should be over Sents, for fast recovery.
+1 to this, and the overall concept
0.02 ISK
Cross
PS ~ Agreed with Vell0cet that having mild reps like these could help improve the NPE
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3390
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Posted - 2014.10.22 03:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again.
Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point.
Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now.
Curious as to your primary role, just for contexts sake 
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3390
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Posted - 2014.10.22 03:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Soldner VonKuechle wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Soldner VonKuechle wrote:My only reservation with this as a Pure Caldari player is that giving any kind of armor regen WILL most likely make dual-tanking more attractive on Caldari suits again.
Most cals I know, and myself included will still put a reactive plate in what we consider our 'utility' low slot as you've pointed out. Adding a native regen would just make me swap that out for a regular plate at this point.
Perhaps more tweaking on actual shield numbers for the Caldari and nixing a native regen for them. idk, thats a quick convoluted thought I'm having just now. Curious as to your primary role, just for contexts sake Cal-ass, as well as Suicidal FG AV, and intermittent logi (would love the native for this, but meh, continuity!) then random calmando sniper and terrible scout.
When you say you play Caldari you really mean it  thanks for the added info o7
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3392
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Posted - 2014.10.22 03:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omega Black Zero wrote:What about Frames?
A fair question.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3393
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Posted - 2014.10.22 03:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
A few quick points of context since I was neck deep in Logistics at the time you reference below.
MINA Longstrike wrote:I think that anything higher than 3 or 3.5 runs the risk of being too powerful - If we look back to the old logi bonus of +1 armor rep per level, it got to the point where level 5 logis did not fit any armor repair modules to their suit.
Some Logis at level 5 did not fit reppers, many still did. Further at the time base rep value of the armor repair mods was lower across the boards to the contextual value of 1.00 HP/s then was much higher than it is now.
MINA Longstrike wrote:I think suits having between 1-3 rep on them is fine, but anything higher (and in some cases even 3 is excessive) runs the risk of people going "Nah, I don't need armor reps".
In some cases - I'm looking at you Caldari (as one example) - a player saying "Nah, I don't need armor reps" is actually not a bad thing.
And I say this as a support player who's potential match earnings will be cut by having more suits with self sustaining levels of armor reps on board.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3398
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Posted - 2014.10.22 07:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players
Gallente (Current Gal Value) - Armor Rep kings
Commando 4 (1.00)
Logi 3.5 (2.00)
Sentinel 3.0 (1.00)
Assault 3.5 (2.00)
Scout 2.0 (3.00) - (GA Scout is very strong right now)
Minmatar - Hit and run, hybrid armor and regen
Commando 3.5
Logi 3.0
Sentinel 2.5
Assault 2.0
Scout 1.5
Amarr - slowly returning to high base ehp
Commando 3.0
Logi 2.5
Sentinel 2.0
Assault 1.5
Scout 1.0
Caldari - shield tankers ("gain" a low slot)
Commando 2.5
Logi 2
Sentinel 1.5
Assault 1
Scout 0.5 Are these base stats or per level? If thse are the max stats then good, i like it. If not, there are glaring issues.
These are native suit stats they are not role/race/class skill bound (if the proceeding is not true I have completely misunderstood the OP  ).
Stated another way, the numbers in the OP are not incremental, they are a flat effect.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3398
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Posted - 2014.10.22 08:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Since I know some folks don't have the inclination to read through entire threads once they start getting larger I am re-quoting this contextual information here to provide ease of reference for all.
Cross Atu wrote:
EDIT: Numbers for context
Rep Mod Base / Rep Mod with lvl 5 skills
STD - 2.5 HP/s / 3.125 HP/s
ADV - 5.00 HP/s / 6.25 HP/s
PRO - 7.50 HP/s / 9.375 HP/s
In other words:
The highest proposed value, Gal Commando at 4 provides fewer reps than a single unskilled advanced repair module.
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3403
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Posted - 2014.10.22 13:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:
2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here.
I'm not a Dev (clearly lol) but in answer to this particular point, I have gotten feedback several times from shield focused players (running Caldari suits or occasionally Minmatar) who want to fit a regulator (or a second regulator) but feel at least some on board reps are essentially mandatory for long term engagements (not talking constant sustained fighting, just long spans in/near combat zones without death).
While there may well be some who would fit more armor in the proposed context, as well as some who simply refuse to fit armor for their own style and/or RP reasons, the are certainly a segment of players who wish to devote their lows to Shields rather than Armor, so long as they have at least a minimal level of on board reps. The proposed change would provide exactly that.
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3403
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Posted - 2014.10.22 13:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:I'm all for it but, shouldn't we be making shields more viable ? I am full armor tanker on all my suits and I think that shield tanking in dust is still not quite right and I haven't even bothered to train into them in the years I have played dust.
Overall I think its a great change but will only further the dichotomy between armor and shields; leaving shield behind by a hood margin. Tread lightly around this change since it will open up the ability to buffer tank without reppers on and, on some suits, an extra plate would make them a little unbalanced.
TL;DR
Love it, potentially destabalizes balance, shied need to be heavily prioritized after this change
Agree that it wouldn't hurt to look into shields. Honestly I think that is true regardless of this change happening or not.
As to buffer tanking without fitted reppers, I don't see any numbers high enough to suggest that would be truly viable (unless you are hanging out with a Logi pal  )
The Gal Commando (highest proposed native value, along with a solid possible buffer) would take 2 minutes 5 seconds to fully rep its armor using only native reps (and assuming max skills). This time is even longer if the Commando is fit with any plates. Over 2 minutes out of combat/taking no armor damage doesn't seem terribly viable as a sole/planned tactical recourse. I am not saying it provides no value, simply that in my view it does not lend itself to meaningfully higher levels of effective pure buffer tanking.
0.02 ISK
Cross
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3405
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Posted - 2014.10.22 14:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:
2. Personally, if I had innate reps I'd drop a regulator to fit more armor on my Caldari suits. Isn't that the logical thing to do? This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be provocative here.
I'm not a Dev (clearly lol) but in answer to this particular point, I have gotten feedback several times from shield focused players (running Caldari suits or occasionally Minmatar) who want to fit a regulator (or a second regulator) but feel at least some on board reps are essentially mandatory for long term engagements (not talking constant sustained fighting, just long spans in/near combat zones without death). While there may well be some who would fit more armor in the proposed context, as well as some who simply refuse to fit armor for their own style and/or RP reasons, the are certainly a segment of players who wish to devote their lows to Shields rather than Armor, so long as they have at least a minimal level of on board reps. The proposed change would provide exactly that. Cheers, Cross Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. There is indeed in issue with the ability of shield suits to maintain full combat effectivity through a chain of firefights. If I want to be able to go on a 30 kill streak in a shield suit I'd better bring repair nanohives. And if I bring those I may just as well fit armor. However, I don't think innate reps are going to fix any of that. Those that want to be able to fight forever without dieing will keep fitting armor and repair nanohives since something like 2 hp/s isn't going to be enough anyway. And they will need the ammo too. Anyone else will just downgrade their repper and upgrade their plates. Then we have the issue that we're introducing innate armor reps across the board because we're trying to make a few Caldari Assaults fit more regulators - which, in a weird twist of fate, receive the smallest rep bonus of all. So in an attempt to make CalAssault fit more regulators we buff Minmatar Commando innate reps.  This hardly seems like a targeted change there. For some reason in the currently proposed numbers all armor based suits are receiving bigger buffs than shield suits. I can't really see who asked for that. Again, I don't mind the changes. I'll just eat that rep-buff and keep stacking more armor. I can turn those buffs into better performance on my G/1 and A/1 pub fits. However, I'm trying to say that this change probably won't have the impact you're expecting it to have.
For what it's worth I think one of the key impacts this is slated to have is a quality of life increase for the NPE.
Are there ways for players who know the ins and outs of the fittings system to optimize more with this, or for that matter despite it, if they so desire? Sure.
The bias however, that I see anyway, is not to the racial ripples per se (yes this will allow some players to focus more on shields but that is not the only/main point of it), it effects the NPE. Players who do not yet understand fitting, or who are still learning the interface to some degree, will have a slightly more forgiving experience.
Another effect of this scaling is to create a slightly greater role specificity within both the medium and heavy lines.
Giving the Sent / Ass a buffer focused role when compared with their frame counterparts of Commando and Logi who'd gain their eHP through regen more than tank. The more light incomparables which can be incorporated into the specialist roles the greater the potential to bring many play styles to equal viability within game while not homogenizing them.
As ever if I seem to have missed an aspect of what you are driving at feel free to let me know, I'm all about the communication. o7
Cheers,
Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3418
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Posted - 2014.10.22 18:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:
Gallente should trump all other race's innate repair rates by a wide margin.
No. Not a wide margin. If this is the case, the base Armor of the Amarr suits should trump the Gallente by a wide margin. Or the base speed of the Minmatar should trumt the others by a wide margin. It shouldn't be a wide margin. It should be marginally the best, just like the Minmatar speed, the Caldari Shield HP, or the Amarr Armor HP. Enough to insure that the suit will be the go to suit for that type of thing, no more. Totally agree. The Amarr make sizeable treadeoffs for a not exactly "wide margin" of extra buffer. Amarr armor HP does trump the Gallente armor HP by a noticeable amount. Look at the assault dropsuits. Amarr: 315, Gallente: 275. That is a 13% difference in the Amarr's favor. We could widen that more by increasing Amarr armor to 335; making it an 18% difference*. Amarr are supposed to be buffer tank gods anyway. 13% is not a wide margin. That's a pretty small margin. About -+ of a basic plate. That about the advantage the gallente assault should have over the Amarr assault. About -+ of a basic repairer. And really, the Amarr Assault doesn't need 20 more HP. It has plenty as it is.
For those keeping score at home that would be a 1.75 HP/s rep rate advantage for the Gal
Proposed values are 3.5 vs 1.5
Net Gal advantage = 2.0
Assault numbers used since those were the suits compared in the quoted discussion.
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