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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18267	Posted - 2014.10.20 12:21:00 - [1] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171650 I made a thing. Lucent Echelon channel co-ordinator - Gal FW You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18269	Posted - 2014.10.20 17:15:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Gallente has the worst of both worlds by being forced to run inside sentinel chase range anyway, and not having the magazine. Now bluntly I'm not in favor of gallente and caldari being able to beat hmg sents on cqc in a straight fight. But can we give the assaults a bonus that makes the cqc equation less a sure thing and offer real options for engagement that carry over to more than simply reducing the die in a fire rate when forced into cqc with a sentinel with or without a logi. Sentinels are hard defense but if assaults are intended to attack CQC cap point a smart assault should have a way to fight that isn't dependent upon the 3v1 blueberry lemming rush. Bear in mind I think that running at the fatty should not become less lethal. But there need to be options that cater to smart tactics. This is one of my reasons for favouring a range bonus on the Galassault. It gets around this situation because it doesn't help take on sentinels in CQC at all - you're still going to have just as hard a time of it attacking heavies head on as you are now - but it caters to tactics by allowing you to engage from outside the killzone. An AR does not outrange a HMG by a healthy enough margin to survive a head on attack regardless of what range the AR user is trying to do it at present, because unless at the very edge ranges the HMG can strike back and if at those ranges it simply doesn't have the punch to down the sentinel before it gets to cover. With a range bonus (and it's worth noting that a 25% bonus wouldn't bring it up to the point where ARs are noticeably outranging CRs) it allows the AR user to engage in a small window where they can't easily be killed back by the HMG but it's feasible for them to down the sentinel. The present bonus just doesn't help at all. Recoil is utterly negligible on an assault rifle and is easily controllable even on the TAR. The hipfire is fine - after sharpshooter 5 nothing really gets helped by it. The assault plasma rifle hipfire is entirely adequate. The TAR receives some fringe benefits, I suppose. You cannot possibly need tighter hipfire on the breach plasma rifle, and the burst plasma rifle is in the same boat as the assault variant. Shotguns? Nobody uses shotguns on a Galassault unless they don't know what they're doing. A scout does it infinitely better. And they don't receive much benefit anyway. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18270	Posted - 2014.10.20 17:48:00 - [3] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Did you read the thread m8? "Allow me to preemptively state that both direct range and direct damage buffs are likely off the table due to game wide weapons balance considerations and that the current intent of maintaining some degree of racial flavor within the bonus selected is indented to be maintained. That being said let's put our heads together and figure out a way to improve these racial buffs."- Cross atu Likely off the table, yes. That does not prevent me from expressing my opinion. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18272	Posted - 2014.10.20 18:59:00 - [4] - Quote I've been speaking with Cross via Skype on this topic. Arkena Wyrnspire: "Allow me to preemptively state that both direct range and direct damage buffs are likely off the table due to game wide weapons balance considerations and that the current intent of maintaining some degree of racial flavor within the bonus selected is indented to be maintained. That being said let's put our heads together and figure out a way to improve these racial buffs." I'd just like to comment on this - Unless using very large numbers, neither of these bonuses would seriously affect racial flavour. A range bonus to rail weaponry for the Caldari would still have them as the longest range types, and up to a 25% range bonus on the Gallente dropsuit the range of plasma rifles wouldn't exceed the range of combat rifles. A damage bonus would similarly work for either race because it still wouldn't throw the damage output out of whack with the other racial gear - an RR wouldn't start outDPSing a CR with a 10% bonus, and the 10% bonus already works fine on the commando. Cross Atu: the damage bonus is due to role overlap not balance per se, the commando is already lacking a defined niche so adding a direct damage buff would degrade that still further, range buffs are being left alone because last I heard from CCP things that altered the range of weapons were considered verboden due to how the old sharpshooter skills effected balance. So in both cases I'm essentially just 'coloring within the lines' Arkena Wyrnspire: Is role overlap undesirable? There is a reload bonus presently shared between the Caldari assault and the commando class. Cross Atu: Some degree of overlap could be workable, part of the issue with the commando is that their role is so weakly defined right now and they need their own workup, adding something which further waters down where they are seems like a step backwards that aside giving the assault more damage as an effect does seem good, the amarr bonus is pretty much the gold standard at this point but finding similar things for the gal/cal may be difficult Arkena Wyrnspire: I don't think the commando role is weakly defined so much as the suits themselves are weak. The two light weapon thing is pretty distinctive and a huge incentive to use them. I adore using two light weapons. The main thing that stops me from doing that, though, is that the suit itself is pretty weak. I was inclined to suggest charge time for the Cal and range for the Gal, previously. A charge time bonus would have to be significant, though, something like 10% per level, and that would be a pretty huge buff to the charge sniper. Cross Atu: the one point of unity that has really been present in the commando thread is that they lack fittings resources, and that seems evident to me as well, however when the question of "what do they do" is riased almost everyone has a differing answer regarding the nature of the commando role Cross Atu: [19:11] Arkena Wyrnspire: <<< A charge time bonus would have to be significant, though, something like 10% per level, and that would be a pretty huge buff to the charge sniper.That's an interesting concept for sure, how would you see that being applied? Cross Atu: sorry, wow, totally missed the 10% you typed there Cross Atu: reading fail for me :P Cross Atu: that would provide value to the charged SR, the RR, and the MagSec (nod) Cross Atu: What about (and I don't know if this can be done tech wise) an increase to the optimal of the Gal weapons. Absolute range wouldn't change but I might be able to sell CCP on a buff that expands the portion of weapon range in which you are getting full damage -snip commando discussion- Arkena Wyrnspire: Changing the absolute range is kind of pointless. At that point you've got so little damage it's worthless to be shooting out there anyway. Arkena Wyrnspire: The optimal range would be useful. One of the main killers of AR Galassaults are HMG heavies, because there isn't really a window in which the AR can engage that's safely outside HMG range. Cross Atu: any thoughts on the per level value that would be soild for such a buff if applied? Arkena Wyrnspire: 5% maximum, I think. Past that point it starts to outrange the CR. That'd give about 10m more range. he other thing is that it would affect the shotgun. The plasma cannon still wouldn't be affected but other than a reload or damage bonus there's nothing I can think of that would affect all the Gallente weapons. Cross Atu: They are kind of spread around the map aren't they :P Arkena Wyrnspire: Another thing that could be considered is non-weapon bonuses. For example, armour repairs on the Gallente and shields on the Caldari. Cross Atu: This is true, that would give them something unique within the current assault context. I think CCP is leaning towards keeping the assault buffs more "gank" focused if possible however, so I'll see what they have to say about the charge and optimal increases first :) Arkena Wyrnspire: None of the assaults are really bonused towards gank, though. Only to sustained damage/damage application. None of the bonuses apart from perhaps some edge effects of the Amarr bonus help you actually gank targets quicker. Cross Atu: Higher / sustained damage output is what I was refrencing not pure alpha per se Arkena Wyrnspire: The Amarr assault has some effect on alpha because with the bonus you can reliably use the charge shot. But again, really, it's not higher damage output. It's just better sustained. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18272	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:00:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu: Yea, broadly speaking the goal (as I understand it) is to have assault buffs that mitigate the shortcomings of their racial weapons and in so doing provide a better sustained/average damage profile with the amarr being the classic example (tho the min does alright as well AFAIK). But I only have each racial assult to level 1 so my direct personal testing is very limited at this point Arkena Wyrnspire: [19:28] Cross Atu: <<< mitigate the shortcomingsThat fits charge time/range, then. Arkena Wyrnspire: Alternatively, I heard something about Rattati not liking dying in CQC to RRs? If there's a hipfire change on them a hipfire bonus could well work for rail weaponry. Cross Atu: That's a good point as well, touche up the CQC for RRs, and I have discovered it isn't a bad thing to present more than one option when moving ideas forward with CCP ;) Arkena Wyrnspire: It also presents an option for dealing with bolt pistol dominance - upping the hipfire spread. *END CHAT PASTE* I would be interested to hear the thoughts of others. EDIT: Cross sort of summarised at the top of the page. This is here for those who want to know more about the reasoning, though. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18275	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:42:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: If the bonus actually tightened the Shotgun's cone I think it would be far better received, with perhaps a buff to the bonus amount. Despite appearances, if you do not have the centre of the shotgun reticule on a target you will do no damage. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18285	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:23:00 - [7] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Lol and thats why you shouldn't skype with strange people on the net lolz. Did he/she convince you lol? ..Sigh.. Back to the topic: The goal should be to make each classes more unique instead of attempting to generalize them or attempt to make them over powered; It might even help if you Imagine the RR and CR in a balance state. Yeah I like how people weren't buying into arkena and kirks crap so rather than have an intelligent debate about the merits of such buffs we instead go directly to crying to the CPM member on Skype and now we have him honestly considering a incredibly unbalanced by design buff. Charming as always I see, MINA. How despicable of me to talk to a CPM member who asked for feedback. A disgusting effort to horribly unbalance all the things ever in my favour, by all accounts. Truly, it is outrageous that someone would dare put forward their opinion. Had I not gone for complete transparency and posted the entire conversation, you wouldn't even have known that I was relevant here. Clearly a shadowy and nefarious attempt to make something overpowered! Sarcasm aside, do you have a personal problem here? When did Kirk or I post something incendiary? Do you simply disagree with our opinions? If it's simply that you disagree, I suggest trying to find a more civil way of disagreeing in future. A simple 'I disagree' would have sufficed. If you feel the need to insult people merely because they don't share your opinion, perhaps you're not ready for civil discussion? If you have a problem with what I said to Cross, explain what it is, rather than bitching about me expressing my opinion. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18286	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:57:00 - [8] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I feel largely that this is simply a perceptional bias - don't get me wrong, the amarr and minmatar bonuses are quite good but they're only perceived to be better than gallente and caldari bonuses because they are the only source of these bonuses. The gallente bonus in particular (now that we have a bit more information on how dispersion works) is UNBELIEVABLY powerful when moving and shooting it just isn't perceived to be that powerful because it's a 'non-visible' bonus (even with one level in min/amarr or cal suits you can see and feel the differences +rounds/lvl or slightly faster reload). The Gallente assault bonus is ineffective. Nobody has ever needed less recoil on an assault rifle. Or any of the other Gallente weapons, for that matter. It is only in a few cases that lower dispersion is useful. Lower dispersion is not useful for the assault, breach, or burst plasma rifles. The dispersion on them is entirely tight enough for any form of CQC already, especially on the breach - you cannot possibly need tighter hipfire on the breach. The only rifle it has some use on is the TAR, and even less so now than it did previously after the hipfire was tightened so significantly. The TAR hipfire is now quite happily up to the task of sometimes engaging targets CQC. The shotgun does not benefit because everything relies on the centre of the reticle, and recoil has certainly never been a problem for it. The ion pistol no longer needs the bonus to be mildly functional and is now an adequate weapon in its own right. Thus, the bonus does not give a significant benefit to any Gallente weapon. In comparison to this, we have the Amarr assault bonus, which has earth-shatteringly powerful effects for the SCR and LR, and the Minmatar assault bonus, which covers the main weakness of the CR and turns it into even more of an engine of destruction. How, exactly, can the hipfire bonus possibly be construed as 'UNBELIEVABLY POWERFUL'? Quote: I've spoken at length before about how in other games 'non-visible' bonuses almost have to reach the point of being overpowered before they end up being valued by players in them The bonus is not spurned because it is not very visible, it is spurned because it is ineffective. Quote: I strongly feel that any bonus to the assault suit should be 'performance' related rather than buffs to straight killing power (like damage, rate of fire, or range which affects how well you're able to project DPS) and for the most part all of the races currently fit that design value with a bit of minor tweaking here and there. To go off on a small tangent, it still seems like a lot of players want to push outright for direct buffs to damage (or ability to project damage) on gallente suits which I think is potentially very dangerous to overall balance and game health as it breaks the standard currently set by assaults. Assaults shouldn't be more deadly with their weapons because they always in every situation do more damage than any player who isn't an assault, they should be more 'deadly' simply because their weapon still functions well the longer an engagement drags on, with DPS / Range / RoF buffs a suit holding them becomes more deadly from second 1 of an engagement. It's been raised to me that "If this were true commando's would be the best suits with their weapons" and I can say from experience they are unless an assault is capable of getting more damage than them by fitting damage mods (most aren't) How do you define 'performance'? The Amarr bonus certainly translates very well into actual killing power - the Amarr assault allows you to reliably use the SCR charged shot in vollies without overheating, which gives an absolutely massive performance hike over the unbonused form. That gives a significant advantage in killing power. Being able to fire for longer with the LR directly translates into more DPS. That's the entire function of the weapon - the LR gets up to terrifying levels of DPS as a direct result of the bonus. Should the Amarr bonus be changed because it doesn't fit into that neat idea? I certainly think not - it's a well-loved and appropriate bonus - but by this reasoning, it does not fit the assault class. Ability to project DPS? That is, apparently, the purpose of the present Gallente bonus - the only advantage tighter hipfire can possibly give is an increase in the ability to apply damage. I'm curious as to why you advocate not having such bonuses in the assault lineup but support the current iteration in the same breath. Range does not make a suit more deadly from the first moment of an engagement, it merely increases the versatility of the weapon. If assaults should be 'more deadly because their weapon still functions well the longer an engagement drags on', then the Gallente bonus again does not fit in. Unlike the other bonuses, it has no effect on either DPS or sustained DPS. As for commandos being the best with their weapons... Really? You say that it only holds true if assaults cannot damage mod past the bonus and that most can't, but... Most can. Both the Amarr and Gallente commandos will be outperformed in terms of raw damage by the equivalent assaults because both assaults can damage mod much more heavily than the commandos. Additionally, the Amarr assault is specifically favoured over the commando for its beneficial effects. If you ask the the LR aficionados whether they would rather use the assault or the commando, they will answer the commando. I guarantee you that the winner of the LR officer weapon used an Amarr assault simply because the Amarr assault is much more damaging with the LR. The only case in which this can be held to be correct is perhaps the Caldari commando and the sniper rifle - this unique instance due to the importance of alpha in the sniper role. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18287	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:08:00 - [9] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: 1)Gallente and Caldari have by far the most diverse collection of weapons in the game. I therefore donGÇÖt get why a bonus that does not help all of them is a major problem. Example: The Amarr assault bonus only helps TWO weapons (We only have 3, 4 if you count the now-useless AScR). ThatGÇÖs not a valid reason to not use a particular bonus. This is a minor point, but to keep this discussion on track it really should not be forgotten. I don't disagree. However, the current Gallente bonus gives only marginal benefits to one, perhaps two, of the eight Gallente weapons. The Amarr bonus gives huge benefits to half of the Amarrian lineup. When the bonus is ineffective and ought to be changed anyway, would it not be better to allow more weapon choice? Quote: 2)Why exactly do we have to buff the AR to the point that it would become a viable option to go up against an HMG in CQC? IMO, the point of the AR should be to destroy anyone using a different light weapon in CQC. HMG vs AR should be no contest as the assault is more mobile. I don't think the AR should be able to 1v1 heavies head on in CQC. I think that it should have options to deal with heavies, though. Presently the range on the AR forces the engagement into HMG range, where, naturally, the HMG wins. Rather than give the AR a bonus to compete directly with the HMG (which I feel it should not do) I feel that it should take a more roundabout route to victory. Your thought that the assault mobility should be important is one of the many reasons I favour a range bonus - it makes that mobility into a real advantage. If you exclusively want something to dominate CQC, you pick a heavy. Being able to outrange a heavy while still maintaining the status quo of outDPSing the other light weapons but being outranged by them improves the assault's weapon performance to a stage where it is seriously worth selection in its own role. Quote: One other thing, which I think is what morte was getting at: The RR is a dominant weapon, it doesnGÇÖt need a whole lot of help, unlike the AR. Why not GÇ£adjustGÇ¥ it to the point it becomes similar to the ScR (would still better than the LR) where it works OK on another suit, but if you really want to make it shine, you need to use the Cal assault? Meaning, increase the BASE charge up time, but with a Cal assault, the charge up time is still LOWER than it is now. Why is that such a horrible idea? I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, and I acknowlege I have nothing to gain or lose from this, but I'm just curious why these things are or are not part of the discussion. This idea of having weapons work OK on unbonused suits but 'really shine' on the bonused suits is exactly what I want from the assault bonuses. I'm not a fan of mucking about with the base stats of the weapons to shoehorn them into the assaults, though. Rattati hinted that he doesn't like RRs killing in CQC, though, so perhaps something will happen along those lines. You're not being an ass at all, these are productive thoughts. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18290	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:20:00 - [10] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: I haz cal assault 5 I like to use "regen tanking" regulators, Rechargers and energizers I use pretty all the different caldari weapons, my assault mainly uses assault rails, knives ,bolt pistols and magsecs As for an additional weapon based bonus; 3-5% recoil reduction, fully skilled rail weapons(5% kick reduction lvl) along with reload skills (3% lvl) become very potent in a proto assaults hands, even on std or adv frames as long as you have the skills trained The recoil reduction allows the more trained operative to be able to sustain fire more accurately for longer durations. The other one for the dropsuit I really like 2-4% efficacy of shield regulators,energizers,recharges Incentivises regen tanking more, allowing u to edge optimal ranges and fight in bursts between cover Negatives of these are that they are already skills available, so some things may get out of hand. However neither bonus effects the assaults hp, range, dmg per shot, ROF That's my thoughts so far, I hope it helps. Il post any further ideas Having bonuses to tank rather than weaponry is an idea I quite like! On the weapon bonus: Kick reduction is going to be far more useful on the Calassault than it is on the Galassault because rail weapons actually have a noticeable kick. I don't think there's any reason that it should be anything less than a 5% per level bonus, though. Incentivising regen tanking on shields is good. 2-4% efficacy on regen tanking modules is pretty cool, but I don't think 2-4% is enough, honestly. A 10% increase to the effect of regulators won't shave even a single tick off shield regen delays in most, if not all cases and jumping from things like 50 HP/s to 53 HP/s isn't much to write home about either. Give it more than that, 5% minimum. I'd suggest 7.5%. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18294	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:09:00 - [11] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: In the some four or five threads that have been raised about this issue, you have continued to completely ignore any points that don't suit your agenda. Any information that disagrees with your perceptional bias is wrong - no matter how factually correct it is. In four or five threads you have hounded me and perpetually complained about my arguments being opinionated and decried my posts as being biased while declaring your own posts as gospel truth. Hypocrisy. You didn't even try to address any of my arguments. You just went straight for the ad hominem. Quote: To be perfectly honest, yes I do have some issues with you being the first to run to the CPM to get your 'side' in without anyone there to point out where your arguments contain logical or factual fallacies. If you want to talk about insulting people, pot meet kettle, you're black. Right, I posted the entire conversation because I didn't want anyone to disagree with me. This is a direct set of quotes from the skype conversation: [20/10/2014 19:50:45] Arkena Wyrnspire: May I paste some of the content of this discussion into your thread for others to discuss? [20/10/2014 19:51:26] Cross Atu: I was just about to do a bit of a write up in there on that very theme ;) [20/10/2014 19:52:06] Arkena Wyrnspire: Cool. I'll post it, then, and if you still want to summarise that'd still be helpful. and then I post the entire conversation in a completely transparent manner In what way can that possibly suggest I did it because I wanted to secretly influence Cross? True Adamance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: --snip discussion of tanking bonuses on assaults- This could work very well. Would utterly cripple my enjoyment of the ScR but if it allows for uniform bonuses across all racial assault suits then I suppose its worth giving up. Why would that be needed? I see no problem with the Amarr assault keeping its bonus. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18320	Posted - 2014.10.21 15:44:00 - [12] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Give assaults +1 grenade. Make the assault suit skill reduce grenade timers by .2 sec/level. some people depend on that timer tries to cook core locus grenade awkwardly explodes You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18373	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:57:00 - [13] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: A few weapon changes deployed, check them out for proper context in the ongoing discussions. Cheers, Cross Seeing as the recoil on the RR was quadrupled and the charge time is now much more significant, both recoil and charge time reductions have become more interesting options. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18373	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:23:00 - [14] - Quote I can agree that recoil bonuses don't have much of any effect and would support 7.5% per level if the Calassault were to get recoil reduction. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18374	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:54:00 - [15] - Quote I see no reason why a recoil bonus on the Calassault should be ADS specific. It's not going to morph into an ungodly engine of destruction if the reduction applied to hipfire as well. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19162	Posted - 2014.11.17 23:06:00 - [16] - Quote Jammeh McJam wrote: caldari: 15% reduction to charge time of hybrid:rail weapons per level and 10% reduction to kick gallente: idgaf This is a ludicrously massive bonus. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19172	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:40:00 - [17] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but that shield regen delay is horrible! 11-17 second delays? Combined with lackluster eHP? With two complex regs Caldari can begin regen in 5 seconds, the rest are looking at over 7 seconds before regen even begins. The Amarr Sentinel begins in 10 seconds base value. If we want assault to be on the front lines, let's give them the tools to stay there. EHP increase and shield regen delay decrease. How on earth are you getting 17 second shield regen delays on a shield assault? With 5 shield extenders the Calassault regen depleted delay does not exceed 8 seconds. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef

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